When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
The last solution, no 4, replacing the entire axles, is the most expensive. The entire assembly can still be had for about $800 from the dealer. (I checked yesterday) No price difference between left and right. For twice the money of just the cup and associated parts, the entire axle with cups, boots, bearings, everything can be had.
My question is this: How many issues/problems/failures occur with the other parts on the axle? How many bearing failures? I have heard of a couple of axle nut studs breaking from over torquing. I have never messed with the rear suspension so far. Is the replacement of the axle an easier job than messing with just the cups?
If you pull the axle completly to change cups, then it is actually easier to replace the entire axle since you skp the part of taking the joint apart, replacing grease, etc.
If you do it the way I mentioned (just pop lower ball joint out, pull axle out of diff, swap cups that way, then it is probably about the same effort, since you skip taking off the axle nut (which if it has been uber tightened sometimes is not all that easy even with a LONG breaker bar. Mine would not budget with a 46" 3/4" drive breaker bar even using 2-3 people on it pulling) but do have to deal with the grease.
I broke one CV at Nationals a couple of years ago. Broke in the middle of the tripod/bearing carrier. This was as best as I could tell the OEM axle and the bearings looked/felt great. Actually the grease was in pretty good shape as best as I could tell. If one could just buy the tripod piece, it could have been cleaned up, that replaced and it would have been fine for a long while most likely.
It occurs to me the engifineer technique means you do only don't have to deal with loosening axle nut, you also avoid the ordeal of retightening it. Some have snapped axles going too far. Others have had long term damage to hub bearings from not tightening it enough.
If its already been retorqued once properly, probably best not to have to redo it if can be avoided.
Removing the balljoint is the prefered for me as well. Ive had an issue where I couldnt even break the axle free from the hub, and compromised the nut mating surface of axle trying to use brute force to free, so whether its crap like that or not properly securing the axle nut with proper trq it can definelty be a pain in the ass and cuase further unintended consequences. Ive actually done it by lossening the diff itself and using a pry bar to pop the inner cups/axles out that way when i didnt have a balljoint remover, this was a little fussy but managed to do it. So take your pick.
First ive heard of this. Who proved it? Ive been around a while, and usually "get the memo" on stuff like this. We talking your own deductions ...or has there been a broad consensus among S2000 owners that ive simply managed to evade all these years that Honda CV grease is causing undo premature wear?
I have a sample size of one, my own car, but the evidence is pretty convincing.
70K miles on oem grease, removed, and noted the pitting.
swapped cups, used redline grease, drove 100K miles, removed, noted zero pitting.
both scenarios included two track days, no launches, mostly street miles.
as noted in this thread, there are multiple other people that experienced no pitting with the redline grease.
my cases included the mileage to gauge the durability of the greases.
i would remove the honda grease asap, just for the fact that there is affordable and easily attainable grease that has been shown to protect the cup.
It's the grease. Like so many things on this car, the OE grease was fine for street-driven cars, but with added power and/or track/autox with high-grip tires, it just couldn't hold up. This was discovered *very* early on -- in my DIY CV thread (see sig), I link to Pinky's post from late *2001*: https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-un...ng-rear-39249/
To my knowledge, jyeung is correct: none of us who've switched to the Redline grease have ever (knock wood) experienced any pitting.
S2000Junky, your experience is likely due to having a later-model car. Honda evidently upgraded the grease for '02: according to TSB 02-063 (issued well into the '03 model year), they claimed that only '00-'01 models were affected. Moreover, it's certain that the AP2 clutch delay valve has spared many thousands of CV cups. Did Honda perhaps change/upgrade the cups? Impossible to know for sure, but it appears the answer is no: the "inboard joint" part number (42320-S2A-310) is the same for all model years, and in fact has remained unchanged since 1999. Typically, if there's any meaningful change in a part, Honda will assign it a new number.
Regardless, it's clear from the experience of '00-'01 owners who've kept their original cups and just used upgraded grease that the cups were never the issue.
in viewing the tsb you linked, it doesn't appear to state that honda updated the grease.
also, i have an '03, so in my opinion, the '03 grease is not up doing a good job whether or not it's updated.
1. Its advisable for everyone to swap the grease on their cv joints asap (replace Honda grease with something like Redline cv2).
This recommendation would seem to be similar to the long standing recommendation that all cars should have their rear hub nuts retorqued following updated procedure if it hasn't been done already (similar in that its preventative maintenance that corrects something less than ideal from factory construction, that should be done sooner rather than later to prevent further wear to expensive components).
Depending on mileage and condition of cv joints, one might want to consider swapping axle cups at the same time (since both are messy jobs that can easily be performed concurrently).
One can remove the axle completely, or use the Engifineer Procedure which is less dissassembly and further, does not require re-retorquing axle nuts afterwards (but does make it more challenging to clean cv and apply new grease, as you're doing it lying under car).
2. To extend axle life, you can A. swap cups for a second lifespan, then B. add axle spacers for a third lifespan, then C. swap axle cups again with the spacers still in place for a fourth lifespan.
After all 4 lifespans are spent, you should just pony up and buy new oem axles, as aftermarket are awful vibration prone junk, and the hardening applied by Honda isn't deep enough to allow axle rebuild (which grinds off a layer of metal) to be worth it, due to resulting short lifespan.
Or buy used axles that may still a few lifespans left.
1. Its advisable for everyone to swap the grease on their cv joints asap (replace Honda grease with something like Redline cv2).
This recommendation would seem to be similar to the long standing recommendation that all cars should have their rear hub nuts retorqued following updated procedure if it hasn't been done already (similar in that its preventative maintenance that corrects something less than ideal from factory construction, that should be done sooner rather than later to prevent further wear to expensive components).
Depending on mileage and condition of cv joints, one might want to consider swapping axle cups at the same time (since both are messy jobs that can easily be performed concurrently).
One can remove the axle completely, or use the Engifineer Procedure which is less dissassembly and further, does not require re-retorquing axle nuts afterwards (but does make it more challenging to clean cv and apply new grease, as you're doing it lying under car).
2. To extend axle life, you can A. swap cups for a second lifespan, then B. add axle spacers for a third lifespan, then C. swap axle cups again with the spacers still in place for a fourth lifespan.
After all 4 lifespans are spent, you should just pony up and buy new oem axles, as aftermarket are awful vibration prone junk, and the hardening applied by Honda isn't deep enough to allow axle rebuild (which grinds off a layer of metal) to be worth it, due to resulting short lifespan.
Or buy used axles that may still a few lifespans left.
I have some interesting data points to add to this discussion, based past research and experience. I think @zze86 has made some very interesting observations about the grease used.
In 2009 I developed the shake on acceleration, after only 20k miles of which 1k was from the Big Track at Willow Springs (all stock setup). CV cups were swapped due to heavy pitting, and I believe they used Redline based on the invoices pulled out last night (R&D Factory in Cali, now out of business). 90k miles later and there have been no issues. I highly doubt they used any Honda type of grease.
Now to the technical stuff, Honda does not use Super High Temp Urea Grease in the CV joints. TSB 99-030 dated Feb 10, 2007 shows the following:
CV Joint Grease-Inner (yellow) PN# 08798-9003 Honda# 4011748 Extreme-pressure, high-temperature grease for inner CV joint lubrication.
CV Joint Grease-Outer (black) PN# 08798-9007 Honda# 4414405 Extreme-pressure grease for lubricating outer CV joints.
Super High Temp Urea Grease PN# 08798-9002 Honda# 3720984 Medium-viscosity grease used to lubricate parts with metal-to-metal and metal-to-plastic contact. It’s good for mainshaft splines and clutch pivot points.
In the Service Manual it only states to use the grease supplied with the kit when repacking the axles, and doesn't list a part number or name. I don't know what that means exactly, it's possible it was removed/updated since the S was no longer in production. But at least we know the exact grease Honda is using, and someone may have further experience with this.
Here's a pic of CV cup from back then, the material inside appears to be yellow and not green like Urea grease.
07-18-2019, 08:10 AM
