Cracked Ring... New short block...
02-05-2003, 07:35 PM
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Cracked Ring... New short block...
This is a long story...
Wednesday before last (Jan 29), I was almost out of gas on the way home, so I stopped at the gas station and filled it up with gas. The car was running perfectly... Wednesday night was one of the colder nights this winter - 18 degrees, I think.
Thursday morning, as I pulled out of the drive, I noticed what sounded like valve noise - not too loud, but an obvious tap, tap, tap... I assumed it was the cold weather and gave the car a few minutes to warm up. By the time I got to the first stoplight out of the neighborhood, the engine had warmed up and the valve noise hadn't gone away... so I thought... "hmm, must have got a bad tank of gas" and I drove on into work. That afternoon, I checked the oil and put some fuel treatment in it. It had only been two months since I last changed the oil, and it's never burned a drop of oil before. It was about a quart and a half low. That had me a bit worried.
Still thinking that it might just be a fluke - bad gas, cold weather, maybe I didn't torque the oil plug to the correct setting (no oil spot in the garage though). I drove into work on Friday in hopes that the gas treatment would work its magic. On the way home Friday afternoon, the noise was still there, and even seemed to be getting louder. Saturday, I changed the oil, just in case something had gummed up one of the valve springs. The noise was still there. On Sunday, I bravely decided to pull the valve cover and adjust all the valves. Thanks to the reference post on this forum, I managed to learn how and complete the adjustment in a few hours. I'm not sure if the Honda manufacturing tolerances are loose (I doubt that), or if the valves had just settled in a bit, but the clearances were awful. On the input valve side, they ranged from .008 to about .011, but were usually fairly well paired on each cylinder. On the exhaust side though, they ranged from .006 to .015 - and the worst spread was on the #4 piston - the front valve was .006, and the rear valve was around .014.
The Helm Manual recommends a valve adjustment "only if noisy", I had just 28.3K miles. I think I'll adjust them every 15-20K from now on - as other people have mentioned doing. The plugs were in pretty bad shape for 28K miles too, but I discovered the factory recall on the OEM plugs, so I changed them too. Anyway, I got everything buttoned back up, cranked it up, and the tapping noise was still there!
At 8am Monday morning, I brought it to Lute Riley Honda. They looked at it for two days, and then called to tell me that they had ordered a new short block for it. It appears that one of the rings failed -they thought it might have had a manufacturing defect. A portion of the ring broke, wedged between the piston and the side of the cylinder, and proceeded to gouge an ugly groove through the whole stroke of the #4 piston. I would have expected something like that to have happened when I was driving the car hard, not pulling out of my driveway and commuting to work in stop & go traffic... I'll try to post a pic soon - its a bit too gruesome for the faint of heart...
By Friday, I had the car back, with the new engine. I really don't want to turn this into a dealership discussion post, but I've got to put in a plug here for Lute Riley - they did an absolute first-class job. They were courteous, professional, called me twice a day to keep me up to speed, called me when they had the engine out so that I could come look at it and take a picture of it, buttoned everything up and had me back on the street in 5 days. They're getting all of my business for my Honda in the future.
Anyway, back to the point... Have other people out there experienced engine damage due to cracking to broken rings?
I have a brother who is a mechanical engineer overseeing the maintenance of equipment for petroleum factory in Baton Rouge. I sent him a picture and he thinks the ring probably failed due to "knock damage" - small shock waves propagating through the piston and cylinder. He's doing some more research, but thinks it was a specific form of knock damage commonly called "rumble". There was a fair amount of carbon build-up on the surface of the piston, he indicated this is common on engines and usually not a factor, but could make a difference with our high-compression engines. The sound might even not be noticeable to the ear, but would be detectable on a spectrograph of the engine sound. I'll post his analysis when he sends it to me...
To my second question - to those of you who have rebuilt or bore-scoped your engine - Was there carbon build-up on the surface of your pistons? I want to develop a maintenance schedule of some type to prevent that carbon build-up in the future - it seems the Honda maintenance schedule may not be sufficient. I know the quality of the air flow into the engine and the intake valve adjustment will have an impact on the efficiency of the fuel burn, and thus the residue left afterwards. There are some fuel treatments that claim to work, but the Honda manual says that fuel additives will not improve operation, only "add to the expense of operating my vehicle"... any input here would be helpful too.
Thanks,
- Art
Wednesday before last (Jan 29), I was almost out of gas on the way home, so I stopped at the gas station and filled it up with gas. The car was running perfectly... Wednesday night was one of the colder nights this winter - 18 degrees, I think.
Thursday morning, as I pulled out of the drive, I noticed what sounded like valve noise - not too loud, but an obvious tap, tap, tap... I assumed it was the cold weather and gave the car a few minutes to warm up. By the time I got to the first stoplight out of the neighborhood, the engine had warmed up and the valve noise hadn't gone away... so I thought... "hmm, must have got a bad tank of gas" and I drove on into work. That afternoon, I checked the oil and put some fuel treatment in it. It had only been two months since I last changed the oil, and it's never burned a drop of oil before. It was about a quart and a half low. That had me a bit worried.
Still thinking that it might just be a fluke - bad gas, cold weather, maybe I didn't torque the oil plug to the correct setting (no oil spot in the garage though). I drove into work on Friday in hopes that the gas treatment would work its magic. On the way home Friday afternoon, the noise was still there, and even seemed to be getting louder. Saturday, I changed the oil, just in case something had gummed up one of the valve springs. The noise was still there. On Sunday, I bravely decided to pull the valve cover and adjust all the valves. Thanks to the reference post on this forum, I managed to learn how and complete the adjustment in a few hours. I'm not sure if the Honda manufacturing tolerances are loose (I doubt that), or if the valves had just settled in a bit, but the clearances were awful. On the input valve side, they ranged from .008 to about .011, but were usually fairly well paired on each cylinder. On the exhaust side though, they ranged from .006 to .015 - and the worst spread was on the #4 piston - the front valve was .006, and the rear valve was around .014.
The Helm Manual recommends a valve adjustment "only if noisy", I had just 28.3K miles. I think I'll adjust them every 15-20K from now on - as other people have mentioned doing. The plugs were in pretty bad shape for 28K miles too, but I discovered the factory recall on the OEM plugs, so I changed them too. Anyway, I got everything buttoned back up, cranked it up, and the tapping noise was still there!
At 8am Monday morning, I brought it to Lute Riley Honda. They looked at it for two days, and then called to tell me that they had ordered a new short block for it. It appears that one of the rings failed -they thought it might have had a manufacturing defect. A portion of the ring broke, wedged between the piston and the side of the cylinder, and proceeded to gouge an ugly groove through the whole stroke of the #4 piston. I would have expected something like that to have happened when I was driving the car hard, not pulling out of my driveway and commuting to work in stop & go traffic... I'll try to post a pic soon - its a bit too gruesome for the faint of heart...
By Friday, I had the car back, with the new engine. I really don't want to turn this into a dealership discussion post, but I've got to put in a plug here for Lute Riley - they did an absolute first-class job. They were courteous, professional, called me twice a day to keep me up to speed, called me when they had the engine out so that I could come look at it and take a picture of it, buttoned everything up and had me back on the street in 5 days. They're getting all of my business for my Honda in the future.
Anyway, back to the point... Have other people out there experienced engine damage due to cracking to broken rings?
I have a brother who is a mechanical engineer overseeing the maintenance of equipment for petroleum factory in Baton Rouge. I sent him a picture and he thinks the ring probably failed due to "knock damage" - small shock waves propagating through the piston and cylinder. He's doing some more research, but thinks it was a specific form of knock damage commonly called "rumble". There was a fair amount of carbon build-up on the surface of the piston, he indicated this is common on engines and usually not a factor, but could make a difference with our high-compression engines. The sound might even not be noticeable to the ear, but would be detectable on a spectrograph of the engine sound. I'll post his analysis when he sends it to me...
To my second question - to those of you who have rebuilt or bore-scoped your engine - Was there carbon build-up on the surface of your pistons? I want to develop a maintenance schedule of some type to prevent that carbon build-up in the future - it seems the Honda maintenance schedule may not be sufficient. I know the quality of the air flow into the engine and the intake valve adjustment will have an impact on the efficiency of the fuel burn, and thus the residue left afterwards. There are some fuel treatments that claim to work, but the Honda manual says that fuel additives will not improve operation, only "add to the expense of operating my vehicle"... any input here would be helpful too.
Thanks,
- Art
02-05-2003, 07:56 PM
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I believe you can hear knocking, although I think our car retards the timing to compensate. The carbon build up in your engine might be the destination of all that oil.
02-06-2003, 03:58 AM
#4
Sounds like one of the dozens of '#4' failures we have seen, this one described a little different as a ring failure. No, a little carbon build is not unusual and does not require any special maintenance.
02-06-2003, 04:01 AM
#5
If you will notice there seem to be a lot of #4 engine failures. I have not seen anyone due A/F readings or EGT readings on the #4 cylinder.
Several other makes of cars have a #4 problem as well, it has always been proven to be a lean condition in #4.
Now in all fairness this has usually been on a returnless fuel system, but I am beginning to wonder if it isn't something to do manfold design and the TB being by #1 instead of being centered.
Has anyone checked the balance of fuel or air distribution on this engine?
Several other makes of cars have a #4 problem as well, it has always been proven to be a lean condition in #4.
Now in all fairness this has usually been on a returnless fuel system, but I am beginning to wonder if it isn't something to do manfold design and the TB being by #1 instead of being centered.
Has anyone checked the balance of fuel or air distribution on this engine?
02-06-2003, 04:18 AM
#7
I have heard a lot of "I thinks".
I was hoping someone had an "I know".
I don't know which I would rather hope it is - lubrication and hope the oil spray bolts MIGHT be a cure or hope it is a fuel or air distribution issue. There are several fixes for that IF that is the problem
I was hoping someone had an "I know".
I don't know which I would rather hope it is - lubrication and hope the oil spray bolts MIGHT be a cure or hope it is a fuel or air distribution issue. There are several fixes for that IF that is the problem
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02-06-2003, 06:34 AM
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Which piston is #4. is that the closest to the front of the block or the furthest back. I have recently taken my 01 s2k in for the same issue. I have had it in for oil changes on time for 22k miles and all the maintenance including the spark plug replacement. All up to par. Now when this knocking started to occur I went directly to the dealer. I was 200 miles due for a oil chnge anyway. They told me the knocking was from needing oil. I bit my toungue thinking ok they are the pros. Engine light came back on as ticking never went away. Took it back in. They replaced a MAP sensor. Ticking still there engine light back on. Just took it back in a couple days ago. Now they want to tear the whole engine down, but if they deem its my fault the engine has the knocking then i will have to pay the tear down for 750 and the parts and labor. BULLSHIT. I took the car out and my lawyer is contacting my DSM. I have had too many issues with this car to count. I have posted them all before also. If they tear down that engine they will find whatever necessary to deem this my fault and i will be stuck with a 2000$ bill. No thanks the POS can sit in the drive till my lawyer calls me back. The minute it gets fixed this car is gone and im moving to alittle more of a creditable car company who doesnt mind admitting they built a car that can not handle itself.
