Camshaft failure
05-15-2004, 04:52 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Some of you may have read some of my old threads regarding my Toda Spec A v2 camshafts. In summary, they went like this:
1) Installation issues. After installing the Toda cams, the dyno showed that I lost power. Toda wasn't obligated to provide technical support, because the cams were purchased grey market. Eventually, the problem was resolved, thanks to my installer (marcucci) and S2Ki (gernby, et al).
2) Resolution of installation issues. Ended up being a valve adjustment issue. The valves were originally adjusted as soon as the headwork was complete and the head was all nice & shiny. Apparently, once some carbon started to build up in the head, it affected the valve clearances. Once the valves were re-adjusted to spec, the car made about 5-8 hp over stock from 5000RPM to redline.
3) Rant about buying grey market stuff. I didn't realize that I was buying grey market parts when I purchased my Toda camshafts, so I made a post with the intention of hopefully keeping others from making the same mistake that I made. The motivation of my rant was the fact that my camshafts had failed, and I had no warranty coverage.
4) This post. The purpose of this post is to describe the actual failure that occured. So here goes.
I had the Toda cams installed for ~2000 miles, and that included 1/2 track day and an autocross or two. Then I took the car out for a 2-day event at Motorsport Ranch. After my final session on the second day, I was driving back to my pit and noticed the engine making a peculiar sound... similar to the sound a bicycle makes when it has a card flapping in its spokes. The car was running fine, and at the time I self-diagnosed the sound as mis-adjusted valve clearances. I drove the car home with the intention of performing a valve adjustment ASAP.
When I finally got around to it and pulled off the valve cover, I immediately realized that my problem went beyond valve clearances. What I found was that the "nose" of the primary & secondary lobes on the intake cam had basically sheared or worn off (see photos below). I was in shock of their condition, and I had no explanation for what might have caused it. My first concern was that the cams were not authentic Toda cams (since I had purchased them "grey market"). marcucci was kind enough to pull the cams back out for me and check them out. We verified that the markings on the cam were consistent with Toda camshafts, and he even went so far as to take the cams to a metallurgist and have a hardness test performed to verify that the surface hardness was consistent with the stock cams. For all intents and purposes, they were basically the same as the stock cams, so we decided that these must have been authentic Toda cams. At this point, we started looking for another cause of the failure. The only other suspect was an oiling issue, but I think we ruled this out because there was no apparent wear on the roller-rockers. Everything else seemed to be in good condition, except for the cams.
So, I started asking around and found that at least one other person had the exact same failure on the Toda cams that I had. This person had also discovered that Toda had changed their manufacturing process since they first started producing the cams. My original cams (as well as the other person's that had failed) were black in color (Parkerized). Later versions of the Toda cams are silver/metallic (non-Parkerized). I'm not sure what all was included in the changes, but I don't think they would change their manufacturing process without a pretty good reason.
After some deliberation, I decided that if Toda had changed their manufacturing process (and hopefully corrected the problem that I had encountered), I would install a new set... so I acquired a new set of the cams. Sure enough, the new ones are metallic, and not Parkerized. So, I installed them this past week, and so far they are working fine. If this changes, I'll be sure to post back here.
In summary, I had some Toda cams, and they failed. We don't know if it was a product defect or some other factor which caused them to fail. However, I wanted to post here, in case others have seen this problem or may have some insight as to what might have caused this failure. I know at least one other person has seen this problem, since I spoke to them about it.
So, here are the photos:
Test fitting the original Toda camshafts (notice the Parkerization)
Worn Toda cam
Worn Toda cam 2
New Toda cam (no Parkerization)
1) Installation issues. After installing the Toda cams, the dyno showed that I lost power. Toda wasn't obligated to provide technical support, because the cams were purchased grey market. Eventually, the problem was resolved, thanks to my installer (marcucci) and S2Ki (gernby, et al).
2) Resolution of installation issues. Ended up being a valve adjustment issue. The valves were originally adjusted as soon as the headwork was complete and the head was all nice & shiny. Apparently, once some carbon started to build up in the head, it affected the valve clearances. Once the valves were re-adjusted to spec, the car made about 5-8 hp over stock from 5000RPM to redline.
3) Rant about buying grey market stuff. I didn't realize that I was buying grey market parts when I purchased my Toda camshafts, so I made a post with the intention of hopefully keeping others from making the same mistake that I made. The motivation of my rant was the fact that my camshafts had failed, and I had no warranty coverage.
4) This post. The purpose of this post is to describe the actual failure that occured. So here goes.
I had the Toda cams installed for ~2000 miles, and that included 1/2 track day and an autocross or two. Then I took the car out for a 2-day event at Motorsport Ranch. After my final session on the second day, I was driving back to my pit and noticed the engine making a peculiar sound... similar to the sound a bicycle makes when it has a card flapping in its spokes. The car was running fine, and at the time I self-diagnosed the sound as mis-adjusted valve clearances. I drove the car home with the intention of performing a valve adjustment ASAP.
When I finally got around to it and pulled off the valve cover, I immediately realized that my problem went beyond valve clearances. What I found was that the "nose" of the primary & secondary lobes on the intake cam had basically sheared or worn off (see photos below). I was in shock of their condition, and I had no explanation for what might have caused it. My first concern was that the cams were not authentic Toda cams (since I had purchased them "grey market"). marcucci was kind enough to pull the cams back out for me and check them out. We verified that the markings on the cam were consistent with Toda camshafts, and he even went so far as to take the cams to a metallurgist and have a hardness test performed to verify that the surface hardness was consistent with the stock cams. For all intents and purposes, they were basically the same as the stock cams, so we decided that these must have been authentic Toda cams. At this point, we started looking for another cause of the failure. The only other suspect was an oiling issue, but I think we ruled this out because there was no apparent wear on the roller-rockers. Everything else seemed to be in good condition, except for the cams.
So, I started asking around and found that at least one other person had the exact same failure on the Toda cams that I had. This person had also discovered that Toda had changed their manufacturing process since they first started producing the cams. My original cams (as well as the other person's that had failed) were black in color (Parkerized). Later versions of the Toda cams are silver/metallic (non-Parkerized). I'm not sure what all was included in the changes, but I don't think they would change their manufacturing process without a pretty good reason.
After some deliberation, I decided that if Toda had changed their manufacturing process (and hopefully corrected the problem that I had encountered), I would install a new set... so I acquired a new set of the cams. Sure enough, the new ones are metallic, and not Parkerized. So, I installed them this past week, and so far they are working fine. If this changes, I'll be sure to post back here.
In summary, I had some Toda cams, and they failed. We don't know if it was a product defect or some other factor which caused them to fail. However, I wanted to post here, in case others have seen this problem or may have some insight as to what might have caused this failure. I know at least one other person has seen this problem, since I spoke to them about it.
So, here are the photos:
Test fitting the original Toda camshafts (notice the Parkerization)
Worn Toda cam
Worn Toda cam 2
New Toda cam (no Parkerization)
05-15-2004, 05:33 PM
#2
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wow that sucks, i would think it would only get worn for 2 reasons. weak metal or oiling problem. since you said it wasn't an oiling problem, the metal must on not been able to stand up to the heat/friction/rotating forces.
05-15-2004, 09:30 PM
#3
well for a major company to change there manufacturing process, it has to be either be more lucrative for the company or correct a problem. I think you just got a bad batch of cams before toda realized there was a problem.
i jus hope you don't ebcounter the same BS as last time. good luck and keep us posted
05-16-2004, 06:45 AM
#6
Registered User
Thread Starter
Originally posted by nzaizar
I have a picture on my camera that looks exactly like that cam lobe on my friends S2000 with Toda cams after his engine failed
I have a picture on my camera that looks exactly like that cam lobe on my friends S2000 with Toda cams after his engine failed
Were his cams also the Parkerized version, or the later ones?
05-17-2004, 04:27 AM
#7
Registered User
A few points to further confuse the issue: 
- The cam wear was ONLY on the non-VTEC lobes. The VTEC lobes did not have any damage, only what appeared to be normal/acceptable wear for the miles. This means that the damage ocurred while NOT in VTEC.
- There was no other indication of an oil system issue or any hint of starvation. After letting the car sit overnight the oil in the pan was between the high/low marks on the dipstick. Oil supply/return ports in the head appeared fine (no blockages). Cam journal surfaces and the rest of the top end did not appear to be worn at all (acceptable wear). Initial assembly of the cams included Redline assembly lube which will mix with oil just fine. Startup after assembly was immediate, there were no extended cranking periods without oiling (one compression test cycle after a short workout at temperature).
- Rollers on the rockers were in perfect condition. With the cam damage I would have a serious oiling issue that would have caused the rollers to sieze and "scrape" the cams. The roller surfaces were in perfect condition and functioned normally.
- The chief metallurgist at the lab that analyzed the cams said that there was still the possibility of a material defect even though the hardness was adequate. Think of an egg- hard on the outside but no shear strength because of the soft material underneath.
- Parkerizing is only a finishing. It does not offer any hardness or other mechanical protection. It is merely to inhibit rust and other surface corrosion. The parkerization wears off within the first few minutes of operation (from lobes and journal surfaces).
Probably the most important point that can be made here is to NOT buy gray market products. Why? Because if you don't, and have a problem, you will not get warranty support. What likely happened here is that Toda made a run of parts, found out they were bad, and recalled them. They can easily go to AKH (their US importer) and have them exchange their stock for good units. They can't control all the gray marketers who buy in bulk from JDM local suppliers and then resell in the US... by that time Toda has lost traceability.
I can tell you from experience that Toda/AKH will NOT be responsive if you did not buy through AKH in the US.
- The cam wear was ONLY on the non-VTEC lobes. The VTEC lobes did not have any damage, only what appeared to be normal/acceptable wear for the miles. This means that the damage ocurred while NOT in VTEC.
- There was no other indication of an oil system issue or any hint of starvation. After letting the car sit overnight the oil in the pan was between the high/low marks on the dipstick. Oil supply/return ports in the head appeared fine (no blockages). Cam journal surfaces and the rest of the top end did not appear to be worn at all (acceptable wear). Initial assembly of the cams included Redline assembly lube which will mix with oil just fine. Startup after assembly was immediate, there were no extended cranking periods without oiling (one compression test cycle after a short workout at temperature).
- Rollers on the rockers were in perfect condition. With the cam damage I would have a serious oiling issue that would have caused the rollers to sieze and "scrape" the cams. The roller surfaces were in perfect condition and functioned normally.
- The chief metallurgist at the lab that analyzed the cams said that there was still the possibility of a material defect even though the hardness was adequate. Think of an egg- hard on the outside but no shear strength because of the soft material underneath.
- Parkerizing is only a finishing. It does not offer any hardness or other mechanical protection. It is merely to inhibit rust and other surface corrosion. The parkerization wears off within the first few minutes of operation (from lobes and journal surfaces).
Probably the most important point that can be made here is to NOT buy gray market products. Why? Because if you don't, and have a problem, you will not get warranty support. What likely happened here is that Toda made a run of parts, found out they were bad, and recalled them. They can easily go to AKH (their US importer) and have them exchange their stock for good units. They can't control all the gray marketers who buy in bulk from JDM local suppliers and then resell in the US... by that time Toda has lost traceability.
I can tell you from experience that Toda/AKH will NOT be responsive if you did not buy through AKH in the US.
