Broken Mugen Header!
06-15-2004, 07:48 PM
#21
Registered User
I just saw two dynos done where the cars made less power than a stock S2000s.
With coveted Mugen parts
I don't talk out my ass, maybe you should do some studying on tuning an N/A S2000. Without engine management, bolts ons it do little to nothing other than hurt overall performance.
Well wow would I say this and not post some reasoning. I guess that would be typical right as it is easy to spew shit and not back it up the web forums. And honestly I am just bringing up a point, its open for debate please prove me wrong.
Here are results from our dyno day on the Mustang dyno.
The results seemed odd, but after talking with the shop owner as well as some dynapack tuners in CA, and others on my forum, the concensus was, whether you spend almost $4,000$ on Mugen parts or 1500$ the I/H/E combos do not do much on any N/A Honda car without tuning.
The s2000 proves this point further.
I think they are the best parts you can buy for quality, but are a total and complete rip off for the performance you get, and anyone who argues that is just justifying the name plate.
Here is another example:
King was/ is previously selling upper control arms for the Civic with a marked up price, they were in fact made for king by Skunk2. The same product you could buy from Skunk2 was more money at King rebadged. I brought this issue up with them, via phone and email asking why they charged more, and the response was that they were custom made for them. After comparing the pieces I found no difference in matterials or design, just price. The price has since come down. In some ways you pay for the name, thats my real point. And as far as performance, well prove to me it is worth it.
Here
http://www.hondavision.com/freshwater/
Start downloading the dynos.
I have also seen dyno jets (which are not the best for tuning IMO) Dynapacks go further to show in detail specific issues with tuning when these parts are installed.
Here are two stock runs from and 01 and 02
http://www.hondavision.com/freshwater/over...ersteerdyno.mpg
http://www.hondavision.com/freshwater/dezorisdyno.mpg
Heres the first Mugen dyno run
Uncompressed huge AVI.
http://www.hondavision.com/freshwater/mugendyno.avi
Here is the second.
http://www.hondavision.com/freshwater/urmildyno.avi
With coveted Mugen parts
I don't talk out my ass, maybe you should do some studying on tuning an N/A S2000. Without engine management, bolts ons it do little to nothing other than hurt overall performance.
Well wow would I say this and not post some reasoning. I guess that would be typical right as it is easy to spew shit and not back it up the web forums. And honestly I am just bringing up a point, its open for debate please prove me wrong.
Here are results from our dyno day on the Mustang dyno.
The results seemed odd, but after talking with the shop owner as well as some dynapack tuners in CA, and others on my forum, the concensus was, whether you spend almost $4,000$ on Mugen parts or 1500$ the I/H/E combos do not do much on any N/A Honda car without tuning.
The s2000 proves this point further.
I think they are the best parts you can buy for quality, but are a total and complete rip off for the performance you get, and anyone who argues that is just justifying the name plate.
Here is another example:
King was/ is previously selling upper control arms for the Civic with a marked up price, they were in fact made for king by Skunk2. The same product you could buy from Skunk2 was more money at King rebadged. I brought this issue up with them, via phone and email asking why they charged more, and the response was that they were custom made for them. After comparing the pieces I found no difference in matterials or design, just price. The price has since come down. In some ways you pay for the name, thats my real point. And as far as performance, well prove to me it is worth it.
Here
http://www.hondavision.com/freshwater/
Start downloading the dynos.
I have also seen dyno jets (which are not the best for tuning IMO) Dynapacks go further to show in detail specific issues with tuning when these parts are installed.
Here are two stock runs from and 01 and 02
http://www.hondavision.com/freshwater/over...ersteerdyno.mpg
http://www.hondavision.com/freshwater/dezorisdyno.mpg
Heres the first Mugen dyno run
Uncompressed huge AVI.
http://www.hondavision.com/freshwater/mugendyno.avi
Here is the second.
http://www.hondavision.com/freshwater/urmildyno.avi
06-15-2004, 08:27 PM
#22
Registered User
My first question is what the hell is Mustang dyno? are these guys specialized in Honda cars at all? I installed my Mugen header at Defcon Auto (best Honda tuner in town) where they did a back to back dyno, I gained 8hp alone with the Mugen header. I will email the shop tomorrow to see if they can find me the dyno sheets.
On the other hand I checked out the dyno sheets you provided, and I have no clue why a stock S2000 will lose power after the header install, maybe the shop did not know what they were doing. I have no doubt a crappy installation job will kill the overall perfermance of the car.
Secondly why do you compare King's products to Mugen?
King is only a distributer of Mugen Japan, king has done no part in designing any of the Mugen parts.
Thirdly, dont you know HP doesnt mean everything? Scot's S2000 has only 10 more HP than most of the ordinary stock S2000's, but on a straight way, it walks away from all the stock S2's. Well his car has nothing but bolt on Mugen parts.
lastly, where the hell did u come out with the following theory:
"bolts ons it do little to nothing other than hurt overall performance."
if I understand you right, u were saying AEM intake, T1R exhaust are doing little to nothing other than hurting the car's overall performance?
Dont hate because you cant afford it.
On the other hand I checked out the dyno sheets you provided, and I have no clue why a stock S2000 will lose power after the header install, maybe the shop did not know what they were doing. I have no doubt a crappy installation job will kill the overall perfermance of the car.
Secondly why do you compare King's products to Mugen?
King is only a distributer of Mugen Japan, king has done no part in designing any of the Mugen parts.
Thirdly, dont you know HP doesnt mean everything? Scot's S2000 has only 10 more HP than most of the ordinary stock S2000's, but on a straight way, it walks away from all the stock S2's. Well his car has nothing but bolt on Mugen parts.
lastly, where the hell did u come out with the following theory:
"bolts ons it do little to nothing other than hurt overall performance."
if I understand you right, u were saying AEM intake, T1R exhaust are doing little to nothing other than hurting the car's overall performance?
Dont hate because you cant afford it.
06-15-2004, 08:58 PM
#24
Registered User
Here is a good explanation of an inertia dynos (dyno jet)
Here is a good explanation of loaded dynos (IE: Mustang Dyno)
[QUOTE]A principal advantage of a loaded dyno is its ability to measure power either under acceleration or in the absence of acceleration, such as in a steady-state, no-acceleration condition as in, for instance, a sustained 60 mph or 4,300 rpm. This doesn't necessarily make it any better at producing the full-throttle power measurements we so often seek, but it does permit many additional forms of testing (and tuning).
In overly simple terms, the only hardware needed by an inertia-only dyno to calculate accelerating horsepower and torque is an accurate timer, a drum of known mass, and sensors to precisely read drum velocity and engine rpm at regular, frequent intervals. The dyno's processor and software do the rest. Think of an inertia-only dyno as a high-tech, accurate measuring stick for plotting wide-open power and torque curves. Because it requires acceleration to measure power, the limitation of an inertia-only dyno is that it cannot measure power output in any steady-state condition (since, using the Force = Mass x Acceleration formula, if acceleration is zero, so is force).
Here is a good explanation of loaded dynos (IE: Mustang Dyno)
[QUOTE]A principal advantage of a loaded dyno is its ability to measure power either under acceleration or in the absence of acceleration, such as in a steady-state, no-acceleration condition as in, for instance, a sustained 60 mph or 4,300 rpm. This doesn't necessarily make it any better at producing the full-throttle power measurements we so often seek, but it does permit many additional forms of testing (and tuning).
06-16-2004, 12:04 AM
#25
Registered User
one simple question,
have you ever tried any Mugen parts on your car? you do need to try it yourself to feel the difference.
is the 10hp worth the money? to me it is.
either way Kaolinte got a very satisfying reply from King and it puts the end to this subject. You dont have to give me a lecture on parts selection and engine tuning. I think I know just enough to run my car right.
have you ever tried any Mugen parts on your car? you do need to try it yourself to feel the difference.
is the 10hp worth the money? to me it is.
either way Kaolinte got a very satisfying reply from King and it puts the end to this subject. You dont have to give me a lecture on parts selection and engine tuning. I think I know just enough to run my car right.
06-16-2004, 12:20 AM
#27
Registered User
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Okay, here's my take on this.
Ultimate peak HP is one matter, but the power improvement under the curve is just as important if not more. On earlier VW GTI's, I helped tune/install over 9 cars for street-use where a few bolt-ons rarely improved peak HP outside of a dyno's margin of error, however what was very obvious to see was the improvement in the midrange rpms where MK1 GTI's gained over 15HP and over 25 pound/feet of torque below 5500rpms. That can easily be felt and the difference in power is like night and day... very useful in day to day driving, and a blast when you get the heavy-foot syndrome from time to time.
My friend's Mugen equipped S2000 came a long way, however when I first met him, he had the CAI, ECU, headers from Mugen, and a J's N1 single exhaust just to name the major stuff (he has more now). The difference in power and driving feel was amazing. The car revs easier and gets to 9k much faster, the low end was stronger (which is amazing since most bolt-ons only kill low rpm power; I suspect the N1 ECU is responsible for this since running more ignition will do it), then the midrange before, at and right after 6000rpms was much stronger. Compared to my completely stock S2000 (back then), the VTEC kick felt weak compared to my friend's Mugen equipped car. I'm sure if you put his car on a dyno rack, it may not dish out a heck of a lot more power at peak compared to a stock S2k, but it definitely has a lot more power everywhere else.
Don't let dyno figures fool you, you should base all of your facts and opinions based solely on peak HP #'s via dyno sheets as much as you should buy speakers only based on the whitepapers and not listening to them. If you haven't driven a Mugen equipped car, you have no idea what the figures mean. I don't care about the power figures as much anymore because I experienced it first-hand... you have to be pretty numb to not notice the huge difference it makes. There's a lot of money that can be spent on an NA S2000 and not have an impressive improvement in peak HP versus using a SC from Vortech/Comptech, but some people like myself prefer the driving feel and response of a NA S2000.
Ultimate peak HP is one matter, but the power improvement under the curve is just as important if not more. On earlier VW GTI's, I helped tune/install over 9 cars for street-use where a few bolt-ons rarely improved peak HP outside of a dyno's margin of error, however what was very obvious to see was the improvement in the midrange rpms where MK1 GTI's gained over 15HP and over 25 pound/feet of torque below 5500rpms. That can easily be felt and the difference in power is like night and day... very useful in day to day driving, and a blast when you get the heavy-foot syndrome from time to time.
My friend's Mugen equipped S2000 came a long way, however when I first met him, he had the CAI, ECU, headers from Mugen, and a J's N1 single exhaust just to name the major stuff (he has more now). The difference in power and driving feel was amazing. The car revs easier and gets to 9k much faster, the low end was stronger (which is amazing since most bolt-ons only kill low rpm power; I suspect the N1 ECU is responsible for this since running more ignition will do it), then the midrange before, at and right after 6000rpms was much stronger. Compared to my completely stock S2000 (back then), the VTEC kick felt weak compared to my friend's Mugen equipped car. I'm sure if you put his car on a dyno rack, it may not dish out a heck of a lot more power at peak compared to a stock S2k, but it definitely has a lot more power everywhere else.
Don't let dyno figures fool you, you should base all of your facts and opinions based solely on peak HP #'s via dyno sheets as much as you should buy speakers only based on the whitepapers and not listening to them. If you haven't driven a Mugen equipped car, you have no idea what the figures mean. I don't care about the power figures as much anymore because I experienced it first-hand... you have to be pretty numb to not notice the huge difference it makes. There's a lot of money that can be spent on an NA S2000 and not have an impressive improvement in peak HP versus using a SC from Vortech/Comptech, but some people like myself prefer the driving feel and response of a NA S2000.
