Bolt recalls and other issues....
07-24-2003, 01:31 PM
#31
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Originally posted by gernby
Don't be a prick.
Don't be a prick.
07-24-2003, 02:05 PM
#33
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Friendly kisses my ass and I could not ask for better service.
They don't talk so nice about you and your car though.
They say you beat on it and they are tired of the free diff replacement etc.
They don't talk so nice about you and your car though.
They say you beat on it and they are tired of the free diff replacement etc.
07-24-2003, 02:15 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by brushman
[B]Friendly kisses my ass and I could not ask for better service.
They don't talk so nice about you and your car though.
[B]Friendly kisses my ass and I could not ask for better service.
They don't talk so nice about you and your car though.
07-24-2003, 02:31 PM
#35
Here's a summary of where things stand with respect to your heading "bolt recall".......
BANJO OIL JET BOLT (4-hole bolt)
In June 2002 there was a recall initiated in the Netherlands for both loose spark plugs and engine cooling / lubrication. This recall then continued to all the other European countries and England. The plug recall TSB was announced in the US July 10, and upgrades started mid-August. However, to date there’s has been no mention of the banjo bolt issue in the US.
Here is what Honda UK TSB states:
(1.) Introduction – Honda Motor Company Ltd., have determined it necessary to conduct a Product Update in order to rectify a potential concern with the piston oil jet bolts on certain Honda S2000 engines.
(2.) Symptom – Under certain conditions, the lubrication and cooling of the pistons may be insufficient. If the engine is continued to be used in severe high load conditions this may result in premature wear of components and an increase in the engine operating noise level.
(3.) Cause – The flow characteristics of the oil jets may be insufficient under certain engine operating conditions.
(4.) Countermeasure – The flow characteristic of the oil jets has been changed to improve piston cooling and lubrication.
So, under certain driving circumstances there can be insufficient lubrication and cooling that can result in damage to the engine. To correct the problem, Honda changed the bolt design. It was widely reportedly Honda began installing the new design bolts after engine F20C 1102 5386; however, a Florida owner inspected his engine F20C 1102 5376 only to learn he had the updated bolts installed already. So when they started is unclear. These changes are now contained in the September 2002 dealer’s parts listing. The original 2-hole design was upgraded to a new 4-hole design, which is located differently on bolt as well. The new US part number is 15290-PCX-000. List price on the bolts is about $15 each and it takes four.
To date there is still no mention of a recall in the US! In England the customer letters stated "We have discovered that under conditions of prolonged severe ongoing loading, its possible that insufficient lubrication of the engine could lead to increased noise and accelerated wear." Then it goes on to say we would like to provide you "extended engine guarantee for a period of 12 months, commencing as soon as the manufacturer's warranty has expired."
In early July 2002, Woodwork, a Honda engineer, commented that drivers in Europe use their cars differently than in the US and therefore different mechanical situations rise. He stated the banjo bolt update in Europe was not for #4 cyl scoring but rather something that he was not at liberty to discuss. In October 2002, Woodwork stated there are a lot of issues that go along with all this that he could not discuss. And concluded by saying, if some of you want to replace the banjo bolts, do it if it will make you feel better; but he added he don't think your engine cares one way or the other. Some European owner’s speculate that extended high-speed driving, like 30 minutes of 120 mph+ in hot climates are what leads to the problem.
One owner had the entire job down at the dealership for $278 -- 3.1 hours labor, including an oil change and the bolts.
Here’s a assessment by one owner, xviper: "Honda in Europe has stated that the changeover to these bolts has nothing to do with the cylinder failures but more to do with the driving style of Europeans. Under each piston is an oil jet spray nozzle that squirts oil up under each piston. Each oil jet is attached and fed by these bolts to the underside of the engine block. The "old" bolts had two holes. The "new" bolts have 4 slightly smaller holes, supposedly providing for a more effective oil spray. Each bolt costs about 15 bucks and you need 4 of them. The whole job should take about 1 - 1.5 hours for a pro. To do the job, you must remove the oil pan, oil splash plate to access the underside of the engine where the sprayers live. The crank must be rotated so that each cylinder's sprayer can be reached due to the "big end" being in the way. Once exposed, the actual bolt swap takes only about 20 minutes for all 4. A couple of cases in Europe has been reported of inexperienced techs who put the oil bolts in wrong resulting in engine damage. One report has originated in the U.S. where the home installer stripped the threads in the engine block. He has since managed to "bandage" it back up. Not sure if it will hold or for how long.
It is not a complicated job but one that has details that must be attended to. Do you need them? What are you planning to do with your car? How do you drive the thing? Extended high rpm running? Forced Induction? Track use?
I did mine when I had the oil pan off anyway for a supercharger installation. I would not have bothered otherwise. Worrying about the #4 cylinder failure and how it relates to these oil bolts is a NON worthwhile exercise."
That's were things stand, and I personally have not done the bolt change, nor felt that I need to. As for all the personal issues you've had with your car, it reads like you are abusing the hell out of it. If not, then you have a lemon. I'm not trying judge... only stating an observation. As you've already discovered it much better to just state the facts and leave out the exaggeration and speculation when posting. The exception to this is when describing Michigan roads, which are best described as "Third World Country"!
BANJO OIL JET BOLT (4-hole bolt)
In June 2002 there was a recall initiated in the Netherlands for both loose spark plugs and engine cooling / lubrication. This recall then continued to all the other European countries and England. The plug recall TSB was announced in the US July 10, and upgrades started mid-August. However, to date there’s has been no mention of the banjo bolt issue in the US.
Here is what Honda UK TSB states:
(1.) Introduction – Honda Motor Company Ltd., have determined it necessary to conduct a Product Update in order to rectify a potential concern with the piston oil jet bolts on certain Honda S2000 engines.
(2.) Symptom – Under certain conditions, the lubrication and cooling of the pistons may be insufficient. If the engine is continued to be used in severe high load conditions this may result in premature wear of components and an increase in the engine operating noise level.
(3.) Cause – The flow characteristics of the oil jets may be insufficient under certain engine operating conditions.
(4.) Countermeasure – The flow characteristic of the oil jets has been changed to improve piston cooling and lubrication.
So, under certain driving circumstances there can be insufficient lubrication and cooling that can result in damage to the engine. To correct the problem, Honda changed the bolt design. It was widely reportedly Honda began installing the new design bolts after engine F20C 1102 5386; however, a Florida owner inspected his engine F20C 1102 5376 only to learn he had the updated bolts installed already. So when they started is unclear. These changes are now contained in the September 2002 dealer’s parts listing. The original 2-hole design was upgraded to a new 4-hole design, which is located differently on bolt as well. The new US part number is 15290-PCX-000. List price on the bolts is about $15 each and it takes four.
To date there is still no mention of a recall in the US! In England the customer letters stated "We have discovered that under conditions of prolonged severe ongoing loading, its possible that insufficient lubrication of the engine could lead to increased noise and accelerated wear." Then it goes on to say we would like to provide you "extended engine guarantee for a period of 12 months, commencing as soon as the manufacturer's warranty has expired."
In early July 2002, Woodwork, a Honda engineer, commented that drivers in Europe use their cars differently than in the US and therefore different mechanical situations rise. He stated the banjo bolt update in Europe was not for #4 cyl scoring but rather something that he was not at liberty to discuss. In October 2002, Woodwork stated there are a lot of issues that go along with all this that he could not discuss. And concluded by saying, if some of you want to replace the banjo bolts, do it if it will make you feel better; but he added he don't think your engine cares one way or the other. Some European owner’s speculate that extended high-speed driving, like 30 minutes of 120 mph+ in hot climates are what leads to the problem.
One owner had the entire job down at the dealership for $278 -- 3.1 hours labor, including an oil change and the bolts.
Here’s a assessment by one owner, xviper: "Honda in Europe has stated that the changeover to these bolts has nothing to do with the cylinder failures but more to do with the driving style of Europeans. Under each piston is an oil jet spray nozzle that squirts oil up under each piston. Each oil jet is attached and fed by these bolts to the underside of the engine block. The "old" bolts had two holes. The "new" bolts have 4 slightly smaller holes, supposedly providing for a more effective oil spray. Each bolt costs about 15 bucks and you need 4 of them. The whole job should take about 1 - 1.5 hours for a pro. To do the job, you must remove the oil pan, oil splash plate to access the underside of the engine where the sprayers live. The crank must be rotated so that each cylinder's sprayer can be reached due to the "big end" being in the way. Once exposed, the actual bolt swap takes only about 20 minutes for all 4. A couple of cases in Europe has been reported of inexperienced techs who put the oil bolts in wrong resulting in engine damage. One report has originated in the U.S. where the home installer stripped the threads in the engine block. He has since managed to "bandage" it back up. Not sure if it will hold or for how long.
It is not a complicated job but one that has details that must be attended to. Do you need them? What are you planning to do with your car? How do you drive the thing? Extended high rpm running? Forced Induction? Track use?
I did mine when I had the oil pan off anyway for a supercharger installation. I would not have bothered otherwise. Worrying about the #4 cylinder failure and how it relates to these oil bolts is a NON worthwhile exercise."
That's were things stand, and I personally have not done the bolt change, nor felt that I need to. As for all the personal issues you've had with your car, it reads like you are abusing the hell out of it. If not, then you have a lemon. I'm not trying judge... only stating an observation. As you've already discovered it much better to just state the facts and leave out the exaggeration and speculation when posting. The exception to this is when describing Michigan roads, which are best described as "Third World Country"!
07-24-2003, 02:42 PM
#36
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Thank you dlq. It is refreshing to hear from someone alittle more open minded, rather then finger pointing.
On that note I must say that if I felt as if I abused the car in such a way to not warrant repairs, I would most certainly not have a problem covering the damages on my own. On the other hand the meere disrespect that AHM has shown me is enough to fight the guys till the end. Unfortunatly, that monthly car payment still has to be sent out whether the car drives or not. Thanks again for the post
-Dave
On that note I must say that if I felt as if I abused the car in such a way to not warrant repairs, I would most certainly not have a problem covering the damages on my own. On the other hand the meere disrespect that AHM has shown me is enough to fight the guys till the end. Unfortunatly, that monthly car payment still has to be sent out whether the car drives or not. Thanks again for the post
-Dave
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