BIG MISTAKE cross threaded oil jet bolt!
12-19-2007, 01:26 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by speedworksracing,Dec 19 2007, 12:04 PM
FYI a magnetic drain bolt will not pick up the pieces of metal from driling and tapping, It is aluminum.
12-19-2007, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SC_Highlander,Dec 19 2007, 12:30 PM
Defender had this same problem several years back. His was fixed with a helicoil and re-tapping the threads on the oil jet bolt.
12-19-2007, 02:54 PM
#16
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Schmoove, you're right. It's only going to pick up steel/iron.
ahh yes, I mean a magical magnet. I knew i forgot something.
Originally Posted by speedworksracing,Dec 19 2007, 12:04 PM
FYI a magnetic drain bolt will not pick up the pieces of metal from driling and tapping, It is aluminum.
12-19-2007, 03:14 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by animeS2K,Dec 19 2007, 03:50 PM
re-read my post above. it CAN be helicoiled, it's just not completely straightforward.
If you want advice or have questions, shoot a PM to S2K_GP (Toan at PTuning), as he's the one that did mine. Good luck with it.
If you want advice or have questions, shoot a PM to S2K_GP (Toan at PTuning), as he's the one that did mine. Good luck with it.
One big challenge is to gain access to the hole so that it can be drilled, tapped and re-threaded with the helicoil. The #1 oil jet hole is blocked by the oil pump pickup so I suspect that you'll have to remove it.
One way to improperly use a torque wrench is to set it to the wrong (high) value. Then when you are applying what you think is the correct torque to the oil jet bolt, it snugs up nicely and then starts spinning freely. I really feel for you ShMooveS2k, it was a pretty depressing sensation once I realized what had happened. Fortunately, I was able to salvage the block following the procedure that I described.
12-19-2007, 07:16 PM
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Got your PM Eddie. I figured I would just go ahead and reply to your post. Good news and bad news. You can fix the problem without replacing your block. The bad news you will need to remove to oil pump to get to the cylinder #1 oil jet passageway. This will not be an easy task.
Do not bother with the Loctite, Thread fixer epoxies, teflon tape, etc. None of these
techniques will work properly. Why? The oil jet bolt is too small and does not have enough surface area for these things to work properly. You will need to Helicoil that sucker.
Problem is, Helicoil does not produce an insert with that fine of a pitch and to be honest with you Honda shouldn't have produced a bolt with those specs either. The amount of torque they ask you to apply is ridiculously high for such a fine pitch bolt going into cast aluminum. When you have to hold your breathe torqueing down every oil jet bolt, you question the design.
Okay, you will need to use a standard sized equivalent for your insert. The standard size equivalent is just a tiny, tiny bit smaller than the factory oil jet (I can give you the exact size tomorrow). This is not a problem though, since you always need to drill open the hole, when using a helicoil insert. As for the oil jet bolt itself, you need to get the correct standard die to rethread it too, since the
size and thread pitch will be slightly different. I know this sound crazy, but once you put a die to the oil jet bolt, you will notice that the die re-cuts the thread on the oil jet bolt perfectly. Remember that the standard size die will be slightly smaller than the metric oil jet bolt, this is why it works out perfectly. The integrity of the bolt will not be compromised. You just need to be sure to always keep the die square with the oil jet bolt. I used a vice to hold the bolt (practice on your original oil jet bolt first).
Now as far as drilling and tapping the block, you will need to purchase an extended drill bit (sized to work with the helicoil insert). Make sure you tape the drill bit to prevent it from drilling too far into the block. You will also want to grease the drill bit to prevent chips from getting into the oil passageways. I had an assistant apply compressed air into the oil pump pick-up to prevent any stray chips
from entering the oil passage. Also, they can help you make sure that the drill is always square with the oil hole. Tapping the hole will be the same, however, you will need to use a socket and extension to use with the tap.
Now for the tricky part, inserting the helicoil. Be sure that the hole you drilled and tapped is deep enough for the length of the helicoil insert, since you will not be able to grind down any protruding part of the insert should it not go in far enough. Remember, the oil jet bolt needs to sit flush with the block or it will bleed off oil.
I used a vice grip to hold the helicoil insertion tool body and a socket with extension to turn the insert into the block.
If done properly, this will be a lot stronger than the factory set-up. Good luck with this. Keep in mind too that I had the car on a lift when I did this. I don't think this would be possible with the car on jack stands, etc.
Now for my 2 cents:
Everything about the F20C motor has me thinking that the Honda engineers who designed this engine are nothing short of pure geniuses. Roller rocker VTEC, cams that can be removed without touching the timing chain, Integrated main bearing girdle for strength, ridiculously high flowing cylinder head, etc. I'm just not sure what these dudes were smoking when they spec'ed out the sizing for the oil jet bolt. Why would you use a 10mm 0.75 pitch bolt and ask that it be torqued down to 16 lb ft (can't remember the exact number off the top of my head) into a cast aluminum block. Needless to say I feel your pain and frustration.
Personally, I know that many of us have upgraded our oil jet bolts without issue. Honestly though, looking back at the level of difficultly and risks involved in replacing the 2 hole bolts with 4 hole bolts, I would probably recommend that
early AP1 owners take their chances with the old style oil jets, rather than risk getting involved with this. It would be better just to replace the oil jets bolts when you decide to do a performance motor build. Once again, just my two cents.
- Toan
Do not bother with the Loctite, Thread fixer epoxies, teflon tape, etc. None of these
techniques will work properly. Why? The oil jet bolt is too small and does not have enough surface area for these things to work properly. You will need to Helicoil that sucker.
Problem is, Helicoil does not produce an insert with that fine of a pitch and to be honest with you Honda shouldn't have produced a bolt with those specs either. The amount of torque they ask you to apply is ridiculously high for such a fine pitch bolt going into cast aluminum. When you have to hold your breathe torqueing down every oil jet bolt, you question the design.
Okay, you will need to use a standard sized equivalent for your insert. The standard size equivalent is just a tiny, tiny bit smaller than the factory oil jet (I can give you the exact size tomorrow). This is not a problem though, since you always need to drill open the hole, when using a helicoil insert. As for the oil jet bolt itself, you need to get the correct standard die to rethread it too, since the
size and thread pitch will be slightly different. I know this sound crazy, but once you put a die to the oil jet bolt, you will notice that the die re-cuts the thread on the oil jet bolt perfectly. Remember that the standard size die will be slightly smaller than the metric oil jet bolt, this is why it works out perfectly. The integrity of the bolt will not be compromised. You just need to be sure to always keep the die square with the oil jet bolt. I used a vice to hold the bolt (practice on your original oil jet bolt first).
Now as far as drilling and tapping the block, you will need to purchase an extended drill bit (sized to work with the helicoil insert). Make sure you tape the drill bit to prevent it from drilling too far into the block. You will also want to grease the drill bit to prevent chips from getting into the oil passageways. I had an assistant apply compressed air into the oil pump pick-up to prevent any stray chips
from entering the oil passage. Also, they can help you make sure that the drill is always square with the oil hole. Tapping the hole will be the same, however, you will need to use a socket and extension to use with the tap.
Now for the tricky part, inserting the helicoil. Be sure that the hole you drilled and tapped is deep enough for the length of the helicoil insert, since you will not be able to grind down any protruding part of the insert should it not go in far enough. Remember, the oil jet bolt needs to sit flush with the block or it will bleed off oil.
I used a vice grip to hold the helicoil insertion tool body and a socket with extension to turn the insert into the block.
If done properly, this will be a lot stronger than the factory set-up. Good luck with this. Keep in mind too that I had the car on a lift when I did this. I don't think this would be possible with the car on jack stands, etc.
Now for my 2 cents:
Everything about the F20C motor has me thinking that the Honda engineers who designed this engine are nothing short of pure geniuses. Roller rocker VTEC, cams that can be removed without touching the timing chain, Integrated main bearing girdle for strength, ridiculously high flowing cylinder head, etc. I'm just not sure what these dudes were smoking when they spec'ed out the sizing for the oil jet bolt. Why would you use a 10mm 0.75 pitch bolt and ask that it be torqued down to 16 lb ft (can't remember the exact number off the top of my head) into a cast aluminum block. Needless to say I feel your pain and frustration.
Personally, I know that many of us have upgraded our oil jet bolts without issue. Honestly though, looking back at the level of difficultly and risks involved in replacing the 2 hole bolts with 4 hole bolts, I would probably recommend that
early AP1 owners take their chances with the old style oil jets, rather than risk getting involved with this. It would be better just to replace the oil jets bolts when you decide to do a performance motor build. Once again, just my two cents.
- Toan