Any experience using Toluene?
05-26-2011, 11:45 AM
#21
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In case you haven't seriously considered it I would like to add another piece of information to the water/alcohol injection possibility.
Devil's Own FAQ
In general most engines you can usually run the equivalent boost and timing of your 100 octane tune. While on pump gas and with a 50/50 mix of water methanol.
To be honest the water/alcohol injection doesnt really interest me because it needs to be switched with something ... which means that during certain periods it would be switched off. That worries me. And I dont think that its feasible to leave it on constantly?
I used to hear knock (before the toluene) at different instances, not only on WOT .. so what would I use to switch it? And what if there is knock and I'm not hearing it due to the exhaust? I prefer using a fuel additive (or better fuel) because I would feel safer, knowing that the engine is constantly running fine.
Originally Posted by banflu' timestamp='1306262434' post='20610472
Hey schumi.. I have no idea regarding how advanced the timing is... How can I check? 
Since your S is JDM, I have a suspicion that when you bought the car the timing had already been advanced in a way to run correctly in Japan. When you advance the timing, you will normally have pinging and hesitation and that’s where the Mugen ECU comes into play because it will run the car richer and will compensate so that the car produces more torque down low at the rev range. But, in order to run the car richer you will also need a fuel which is higher in octane. In Japan, the car ran perfectly because it had the ideally fuel octane, however our fuel in Malta is not ideal so the parameters need to be changed closer to stock.
First of all go to your trusted mechanic (the one in Mriehel) and find out what ignition timing you are running. He will do this with a timing light in a matter of minutes. In standard mode, I believe that our S runs at 5 degrees BTDC. If your timing is at 9 degrees or over it will suffer from octane starvation, maybe some hesitation, and huge flat spots at the top of the rev range.
As soon as you know what timing you are running you have two options:
1. Retain the Mugen ECU, but retard the timing by 1 or 2 degrees or as required until you are happy with the performance.
2. Put in the OEM ECU and put back the timing COMPLETELY to stock, which i believe is 5 degrees.
PS: Adjusting the timing is not done just by swapping ECU, it has to be done manually by adjusting the crank and with the timing light.
I previously had an MX-5 and advanced the timing by 6 degrees from stock but I didn’t set the car to run richer. The result was added torque in the mid range, but at the cost of HUGE flat spots at the top of the rev range. In warmer weather the car pinged a lot and there was hesitation. Pinging in return made the car run much hotter so temp gauge climbed a bit…it’s all a chain reaction. Advanced timing can give more power but the precise amount to advance safely varies from country to country depending on the fuel and the ambient temperature.
It depends what you're referring to as "my problem". If you mean knock, then yes - the ignition timing is causing knock because its too advanced for the current compression ratio and the current fuel. Thats why it knocks when using the mugen ecu, because it wont retard the timing because it is ignoring the knock sensor.
But, IMO the real problem is evident when I use the OEM ECU. Now, the ECU will detect the knock instanced and automatically retard the timing. But, in order to eliminate the knocking, it has to retard the timing waaayyy too much, causing very bad performance issues (hesitation, flat spots etc) ... which tells me that I MUST use a higher octane fuel for the engine to run fine. Which makes sense after all .. it was DESIGNED to run on 100 RON (because of the higher compression ratio)
I would like to point out that independent tuners found out that the Mugen ECU runs the engine very lean in order to achieve maximum performance. I quote .. "the Mugen ECU, at its richest, is leaner than the OEM ECU at its leanest".
Also .... I was / am under the impression that in modern engines such as the S2000's, the timing is totally controlled by the ECU ... am I wrong?
And for sure, the Mugen ECU cannot be modified to alter the timing, or the fuel, or anything. I was told that in order to change these things I would have to get an AEM EMS. And to be honest, I prefer to just add toluene to the fuel! I'm more than happy with the performance of the Mugen
Well, as much as I hate to do this, here is some free advice. I do have some experience and knowledge of a product manufactured by Lubrication Engineers, Inc. It is their Heavy Duty Chemical Supplement (L-X 2300) for petrol (gasoline) fuel and engine oil. LE, Inc. is an international company, so you might be able to source it in Malta. I have used it safely in my AP2 S2000, as well as some other vehicles over the last year. According to the MSDS, it is 50% K1 kerosene and the rest are proprietary oils and lubricants. It also has a low level of sulphur content, so it is compatible with sulphur by-products. There are two dosage recommendations for fuel usage. The primary (recommended)is to add 1oz/gallon of fuel to a full tank (13 ozs/13 gallons). After that tank, drive 1000 miles and then re-treat the next tank and repeat. The alternative dosage is to add 3ozs/10 gallons every tankful of fuel. The product is shipped from LE (distributor) in a case of 12 16oz bottles. It costs about $60 USD total, so about $5/1000 miles to use. Off hand, this is probably the best thing I can recommend to you without being a tribologist or chemist. Here is some info on the product:
http://www.le-inc.co.../2300_flyer.pdf
http://www.le-inc.co.../2300_flyer.pdf
Just one thing ... this product, with these dilution rates, are designed to be used with normal pump gas, which already includes certain lubricants etc etc.
Toluene has none, so obviously I would have to use much stronger dilution rates in order to compensate.
And to be totally honest, right now I dont really feel ready to have to purchase such additives from the US, having them shipped here, etc etc etc ..
In the future I might be willing to do it, but at the current moment I am still experimenting with the concept of toluene in itself, so I prefer to use something readily available as a lubricant, such as ATF or 2-stroke oil .... I just need to find the correct dilution rate.
05-26-2011, 09:37 PM
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To be honest the water/alcohol injection doesnt really interest me because it needs to be switched with something ... which means that during certain periods it would be switched off. That worries me. And I dont think that its feasible to leave it on constantly?
I used to hear knock (before the toluene) at different instances, not only on WOT .. so what would I use to switch it? And what if there is knock and I'm not hearing it due to the exhaust? I prefer using a fuel additive (or better fuel) because I would feel safer, knowing that the engine is constantly running fine.
I used to hear knock (before the toluene) at different instances, not only on WOT .. so what would I use to switch it? And what if there is knock and I'm not hearing it due to the exhaust? I prefer using a fuel additive (or better fuel) because I would feel safer, knowing that the engine is constantly running fine.
05-27-2011, 01:16 PM
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http://www.alcoholin...duct_info.html. - can be tuned to suit your needs.
doesnt seem like a bad idea at all .. and it says that windscreen wiper fluid can be used too .. meaning it is quite cheap to run ..
in the long run it probably pays itself really ... toluene isnt exactly cheap ..
hmmmmmm anyone installed such a system in an s2000??
i'm not very fond of losing so much trunk space to be honest
would be a real bitch if i'm going on holiday with it or something 
but i will consider it ... i will email them to ask a few questions. thanks for the link
08-12-2011, 07:37 PM
#25
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Any updates? I've found this thread very interesting! I have recently acquired a Mugen ECU and would love to use it however we only get crappy 91 octane and outside temps regularly reach 110+ degrees where I live. I've been considering trying a gallon of Toluene per tank, but am still a bit nervous... Is the Mugen ECU really that much better than the OEM? I have most of the supporting mods to go along with the ECU.
Sorry for hijacking, but I didn't feel that my questions warranted a new post.
Sorry for hijacking, but I didn't feel that my questions warranted a new post.
08-12-2011, 11:20 PM
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Hi there .. 91 aki is around 95 Ron right?
Try it out - see what happens.
Most probably you'll see a performance benefit right away.
Not that it becomes much faster, but it feels much better With the mugen. Throttle response becomes much sharper, there is more torque from low revs. You don't have to keep waiting for vtec to get some power from the engine.
If you here knock, remove it, or try a gallon of toluene with a tankful.
Me, since this week I got fed up of mixing toluene each time I have to fill up. :/
Before, I used to mix a gallon with a little less than half a tankful. It used to work perfect.
Lately I got lazy.. I mixed a gallon with a tankful.. And it did knock sometimes. But I found it a bitch to have to take a helper each time I need fuel! (to hold the funnel)
Now I just switched back to octane boosters. I bought some NOS racing formula octane booster (it's not very expensive locally - 15 euro) and I'm mixing half a bottle with a tankful. I still need to drive it some more to confirm that there is absolutely no knock. But it's so much easier to dump half a bottle than a whole gallon!
The only thing that bugs me is that it also contains mmt... F it, that's what it's gonna get for now!
Hope this helps a bit
Try it out - see what happens.
Most probably you'll see a performance benefit right away.
Not that it becomes much faster, but it feels much better With the mugen. Throttle response becomes much sharper, there is more torque from low revs. You don't have to keep waiting for vtec to get some power from the engine.
If you here knock, remove it, or try a gallon of toluene with a tankful.
Me, since this week I got fed up of mixing toluene each time I have to fill up. :/
Before, I used to mix a gallon with a little less than half a tankful. It used to work perfect.
Lately I got lazy.. I mixed a gallon with a tankful.. And it did knock sometimes. But I found it a bitch to have to take a helper each time I need fuel! (to hold the funnel)
Now I just switched back to octane boosters. I bought some NOS racing formula octane booster (it's not very expensive locally - 15 euro) and I'm mixing half a bottle with a tankful. I still need to drive it some more to confirm that there is absolutely no knock. But it's so much easier to dump half a bottle than a whole gallon!
The only thing that bugs me is that it also contains mmt... F it, that's what it's gonna get for now!
Hope this helps a bit
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