SpitfireS

There isn't much splash lubrication going on in the diff.
It's more submerge lubrication as the ring-pinion teeth contact is under/at fluid level.
Also, 1/3rd of the Torsen unit is submerged in oil.

Some oil is circulated by being thrown off the ring into a cast-in overhead passage leading to the top of the back pinion bearing.
There is also a cast-in passage at the bottom, so the oil can flow back.

Thicker oil will not have much - or any - influence on this oil circulation.

One could argue thicker oil will stick to the ring better, more will be transported up so more oil will be thrown off.
(but the other argument is thicker oil will not be thrown off as well.....)
I've been using Amsoil SG SAE 190 for a while now, works good in my 4,57 diff.
The drain plug isn't clean though, its not that the diff doesn't wear.

Even with this fluid I've noticed the Torsen has more lock-up after a while (+20k km).
It is an indication for me the oil has been chewed to bits and to change the diff oil.

Billman250

My liking to Mobil1 is solely based on my car and my customers. I have them change it every 35k miles. Mine and all the others drain as clean as the day it went in. And metal paste on the magnet is virtually non-existent. I have seen more metal paste with LE products, but this was a one-time drain switching to mobil1, so I dont know how good the previous mechanic cleaned the magnet.

I have yet to use LE, clean the magnet spotless, and have it return after 35k to see its condition.

S2oooNvegas

I personally wouldnt worry about whats on the magnet. Everything in the diff is steel. If you use it hard, your going to get some dust onto the magnet.
And diffs dont last forever.
100k or so they are gonna need a rebuild or replacement, anyone thinking this part will last indefinitely is delusional.
What id be watching for is larger chunks on the magnet, alerting you to a failure headed your way.
If you race this car in any way shape or form, you should plan on diff replacement at 100k or before.
Every other car requires this. In some racing we rebuild the diff at intervals, not even any amount of miles.
So.....
this is quite a strong unit.
Up the HP and you will see more wear. More clutch dumps, more wear.... more brodies, more wear...more track days..... you get the point.
Drive in a straight line and back and forth to work every day and you will see a clean magnet when you drain it.

The point of the bad ass fluid, and the EP rating is for the tooth contact and bearing contact. Those need to be regulated and cooled by the fluid.
The diff is a wear item, it rubs metal to metal to produce lockup. The fluid is a part of this equation, but you will get some stuff from the diff simply doing its job when put under load.

slipstream444

Redline actually doesn't look that good on paper and exhibits failures where Amsoil and Mobil 1 do not. The "paper" you speak of clearly demonstrates how the industry measures and values performance of gear oils/fluids. Please provide legitimate documentation of the performance properties of LE for any "paper" reference. Stating you have "seen" UOAs does not do anything for me. Please provide these UOAs for reference.
I have not to date "seen" one bad UOA on Amsoil (pure Amsoil of course - not a clean-up fill after using RP or another garbage fluid). I have run Amsoil gear oils since 2003 and have never had one UOA come back out of line from my experience - and have never had one drain come out anything but clean. I drive my car very aggressively, so my UOAs would easily have indicated a weakness in the fluid. My car is not heavily modified from a FI or high HP perspective (only intake, full exhaust, gears, suspension).

Once again - most diff failures are attributable to operator stupidity, not whether the owner used 75W90 or a SAE110. If you bothered to read the full analysis of the oils listed, you would see that viscosity is probably the least of the features that determine the viability of a gear oil. You can have a higher viscosity fluid that foams badly that will result in several times more failures than a lower viscosity fluid that does not foam at all. There are more than one dimension that determine the ability of a fluid to protect a gearset and diff.

In my personal experience noted previously, I bought my previous diff from the HTG, set up with the first run of 4.57 Richmond gears. The diff was improperly setup from the get-go. The noise was severe. Nevertheless, I ran Amsoil 75W90 Series 2000 after the diff was broken-in and every change was clean. I took a road trip up to Cleveland to have the HTG install a 2004 transmission in my '03 and to have his diff guy take a listen to the diff (I complained several times that the diff did not seem right). The HTG stated the noise would go down significantly if I switched to LE607, and installed it in the diff. I bought two additional quarts hoping the problem would be solved. It was quieter for around 1,500 miles, but I had to change the fluid at around 10,000 miles on the fluid due to the noise being louder than before. The fluid drained out darker than the dino 80W90 that was used in the original break-in. I was shocked - and immediately changed back to Amsoil Series 2000. I ran the Amsoil for a few thousand miles and changed it again in order to clean out the remaining LE mess. All subsequent fluid changes with Amsoil Series 2000 and the Severe Gear were clean.
I put approximately 45,000 miles on the diff before deciding to go to a 4.44 gearset due to the continued noise. The noise made the car unpleasant to drive at many speeds - especially in the 55-57 MPH range. PuddyMod tore down the 4.57 diff and discovered how poorly it was set-up. He was able to re-use the gears in a race-only diff - the wear pattern was within limits, but not optimal in geometry and position due to the setup.

I can say without reservation the only reason the diff lasted as long as it did (based on the set-up) was Amsoil helped greatly reduce the heat and wear. If I had stuck with LE607 I have no doubt the gearset would have failed in short order based on the level of wear exhibited in such a short period. Obviously, LE does not provide the same kind of protection as the Amsoil - otherwise the LE wouldn't have come out looking like crude with glitter in it.

The 4.44 diff Puddy Mod built has made the car a joy to drive again. There is no perceptible noise from the diff. Most notably, the break-in fluid change after a few thousand miles was actually quite clean - a testament to how well he assembles his diffs from the start. I have used Amsoil SG 75W110 since the break-in and the first fluid change after break-in was clean. I'm about to do my second fluid change. Ben is a perfectionist in every aspect of a build. All the components that benefit from cryo-treating were so treated. He spent a great deal of time setting up the diff correctly from the start with the best components available. This is what he does for a living - and he thoroughly understands the inner-workings of a gearset like no other. He also uses Amsoil. He builds diffs and tears them down. He sees how well fluids hold up over time - and he uses Amsoil in every diff he builds. No one wants a product to come back or a customer to be unhappy.

S2oooNvegas

Slip.... are you REALLY going to try and bash LE based on your one experience with it in a diff setup by a chimp?
Seriously.

INDYMAC

My sentiments exactly. Here are my LE UOA's. The first two are with 607 (discontinued), and the last one is with 1605. I'll leave the others who use Amsoil to post their UOA's for you to compare. The most recent one was by JFUSION, but I can't find his post.




Here is a link to the LE 1605 specs. You can compare it to whatever Amsoil specs are.

http://www.le-inc.co...01-1609_tdb.pdf

slipstream444

It's not bashing - it's my PERSONAL experience. I'm not going to be politically correct with the results I experienced - that defeats the purpose for having a technical forum in the first place. Continue to disregard my experience if you feel so strongly about the product. I go with results and also with a product that is exactly what the company says it is. The Amsoil Severe Gear line of fluids has been proven to be exactly that.

Yes - the diff from the HTG was improperly set up. The Amsoil obviously helped mitigate excessive wear the LE607 obviously did not - as evidenced by draining the fluid so early in it's life. I didn't say LE was a bad gear oil - I stated that it obviously did not live up to the hype I was fed.
This experience in fact parallels my experience with Royal Purple - a product that not only looks terrible "on paper", but proved how poorly it performs and was the primary reason my Dana A44 rear axle/diff in my Jeep GC failed - oil related failure. Royal Purple also refused to cover the failure even with the documentation from the regional Dana representative. There are a number of people who swear by RP products and have UOAs that do not show a problem. However, the company has clearly proven they are more hype and marketing than product - and they do not back up their product.
The White Paper only proves my point in that RP obviously bottles a product that is not only NOT what they say it is (definitely not a 75W90) - but performs so poorly that no one should ever consider using the product. This also goes for Lucas oil. My experience with RP occurred 3 years prior to the release of the white paper I posted previously. I would have never used the product if I had seen the paper.

The bottom line is I was bitten once by a product that was heavily hyped (to the tune of a $1500+ rebuild bill) - a product that was then proven to be absolute garbage. I experienced very poor results with LE and was unwilling to continue to use the product that has very little documentation beyond a couple individual UOAs (not exactly a scientific analysis of the properties of the fluid - only a static look at how well your equipment held under your specific conditions over a given number of miles).

I have had nothing but exceptional personal experiences with Amsoil gear oils (all their fluids in fact) and their products are very well documented - a company willing to put all their chips on the table. Not a company that hides behind a "mystery" ingredient that even Road Rage was unable to get information on (he had a personal friend who worked at LE - and one of the reasons I gave the fluid a try).

LE was designed for a very different purpose than the application you are using it for. It was originally designed for OTR/industrial applications. The last time I checked - my S2000 is the antithesis of this application. The loads and dynamics are different. The SG line of gear oils are designed for automotive and light truck applications. Amsoil has specific offerings for OTR diffs and industrial applications. Amsoil also has fluids specifically designed for race applications - that are NOT appropriate for street (even heavily modified street) applications.

Again, I have seen zero data on how LE performs in industry standardized tests. The "paper", as it was put, demonstrates how every critical property of a lubricant is determined. The white paper published should actually open your eyes to the fact several supposedly legitimate companies (Lucas, Torco and Royal Purple for note) are more marketing than substance. They market and sell a product that not only starts well out of the viscosity range they put on the bottle (a number you rely on them to accurately report to prevent damage to, and void the warranty of the equipment you're servicing), but also performs very poorly in very important areas that ultimately results in excessive wear, reduced longevity and ultimately equipment failure.

I'm not saying that LE is the same - I'm saying that I don't have any information either way. I only have the experience noted above, and it was enough for me to steer clear of LE. If you want to call that bashing, then you might want to consider why you have such an emotional attachment to the product. I call it reporting a personal experience - and doing so in a professional manner. That is what I thought this forum was for...

INDYMAC

Would you please post the UOA's of the Amsoil gear oils that you say you've done? Thanks.

S2oooNvegas

to slip:
If youd like to consider why someone would post such an emotional response toward a product.
Try owning your own business and your reputation depending on the fact that you give solid advise.
I build and repair s2000s for a living and have an impeccable reputation. I also care very much about the cars and the people who own them, im not just a money hungry hack like 90% of the mechanics/technicians in the world.
I build every car as if it were my own. If someone asks for a short cut or wants me to do things their way, i say no. I wont cut corners for anybody. I dont need that kind of business.
So when you see me post about something, you can bet that i stand behind it 100% and have lots of experience with it. If something lets me down, it is immediately pulled from use and my clients are informed.
I have been putting LE607/1605 in s2000 diffs since 2004. I have built 11 diffs personally and i put LE in every one of them.
Out of those 11, ONE has failed and it was installed in 4 different cars over the course of 7 years and road raced beyond belief. Thats the one i was not able to monitor what gear oil was put in it (it ended up 2 states away) but i was informed when it finally quit, and it was due to wheelhop. Huffed the case.

So i hope that helps explain it. I have no axe to grind with you, so im glad you have posted your honest experience. What i want to make sure im being clear on is, i personally think yours is a very rare case. You may have had a failing diff and LE just helped collect the crap better than other fluids. It also may not have agreed with what was in there before. I dont exactly know.
What i do know is i personally have done id say 60 on the LOW side, but more than likely closer to 100 diff fluid changes with LE.
If an issue was going to show up, it would have done so a LONG time ago.
And like i said before, bone stock 2004 s2k diff MY car.... logged over 10000 clutch dumps between 5 and 7000 rpm, for 50k miles. Setup to drag race, beating sti's out of the hole at the street races and at 50k miles i drained the LE side by side with new fluid, they were so close in color and consistency i was blown away.
That was all i needed to prove to me that there is no other diff fluid i would pump into an s2k diff.

Hope that clarifies my POV.

slipstream444

My old car records are in storage (I was overseas for 32 months and the car was stored for 3 years) and I'll have to dig through them when I get a chance.
I contacted Oil Analyzers to see if I could get an electronic copy of my last diff sample and am waiting on them to look through their archives (the last diff sample I took was processed at their old Cleveland facility using a different documentation system).

I will be doing a UOA on my new diff when I get around to changing the fluid this weekend. The current fill has about 12,000 miles on it, running 75W140 (edited - just change the fluid and discovered the bottle with the pump on it was the 75W140 - I thought I had 75W110 installed as the first fill after the break-in). I checked my records (Road Trip app on iPhone) and the current fill was actually the first fill since the diff break-in. The break-in fluid was Amsoil Severe Gear SAE250 (8 oz) topped off with 75W140 (edited - just changed the fluid and Ben wrote the break-in fill on the bottom of the diff - I had originally posted SAE190). I should have results in about 3 weeks.