Amsoil
10-22-2013, 01:54 PM
#41
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First thought: the numbers don't lie so I must be wrong.
So I had a closer look at the numbers (not that I can't be wrong...)
Let's take the Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30.
Product Data Sheet
Left side of the page, under the bottle, next to the ?
Link is named Product Data Sheet, the pdf is named Technical Data Sheet.
(what's in a name)
The TDS of March 2010, 001D6399, 001D6400, 001D6401 & 001D6402
It shows the specs of the 5W-20, 5W-30 and the 10W-30.
And they spec the CCS according to ASTM D-5293.
SAE J300 specs 0W oils to be tested at -35C and it has to stay below 6200 cP to pass.
For 5W it's -30C and 6600 cP.
Now guess what.....
Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30 was tested (by Pennzoil I assume....) at... -35C and produced 5151 cP.
So that's a 0W.. right?
Oh no... then no one will buy it because no one will dare use oil that is OMG so thin!
So let's label it as 5W.
We're not lying because 0W's kinda by default pass as 5W's.
How about that... ?
So I had a closer look at the numbers (not that I can't be wrong...)
Let's take the Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30.
Product Data Sheet
Left side of the page, under the bottle, next to the ?
Link is named Product Data Sheet, the pdf is named Technical Data Sheet.
(what's in a name)
The TDS of March 2010, 001D6399, 001D6400, 001D6401 & 001D6402
It shows the specs of the 5W-20, 5W-30 and the 10W-30.
And they spec the CCS according to ASTM D-5293.
SAE J300 specs 0W oils to be tested at -35C and it has to stay below 6200 cP to pass.
For 5W it's -30C and 6600 cP.
Now guess what.....
Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30 was tested (by Pennzoil I assume....) at... -35C and produced 5151 cP.
So that's a 0W.. right?
Oh no... then no one will buy it because no one will dare use oil that is OMG so thin!
So let's label it as 5W.
We're not lying because 0W's kinda by default pass as 5W's.
How about that... ?
10-22-2013, 03:35 PM
#42
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I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.
Clearly.
Wrong. Cold Cranking Viscosity is not the only requirement for the oil to make grade. According to SAE J300, Maximum Low Temperature Pumping Viscosity tested at -40C is also a requirement. So just because Ultra 5w30 meets the CCV requirement, that doesn't automatically make it a 0w marketed as a 5w.
I think even those straws you're grabbing at are thinner than 0w oils.
Clearly.
Let's take the Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30.
Product Data Sheet
Left side of the page, under the bottle, next to the ?
Link is named Product Data Sheet, the pdf is named Technical Data Sheet.
(what's in a name)
The TDS of March 2010, 001D6399, 001D6400, 001D6401 & 001D6402
It shows the specs of the 5W-20, 5W-30 and the 10W-30.
And they spec the CCS according to ASTM D-5293.
SAE J300 specs 0W oils to be tested at -35C and it has to stay below 6200 cP to pass.
For 5W it's -30C and 6600 cP.
Now guess what.....
Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30 was tested (by Pennzoil I assume....) at... -35C and produced 5151 cP.
So that's a 0W.. right?
Product Data Sheet
Left side of the page, under the bottle, next to the ?
Link is named Product Data Sheet, the pdf is named Technical Data Sheet.
(what's in a name)
The TDS of March 2010, 001D6399, 001D6400, 001D6401 & 001D6402
It shows the specs of the 5W-20, 5W-30 and the 10W-30.
And they spec the CCS according to ASTM D-5293.
SAE J300 specs 0W oils to be tested at -35C and it has to stay below 6200 cP to pass.
For 5W it's -30C and 6600 cP.
Now guess what.....
Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30 was tested (by Pennzoil I assume....) at... -35C and produced 5151 cP.
So that's a 0W.. right?
I think even those straws you're grabbing at are thinner than 0w oils.
10-22-2013, 04:27 PM
#43
OK, you guys clearly know more about oil viscosity than I do. And its kinda refreshing to see an oil war thread that involves real data, and not just my oil is better than your oil. But for all your battling here guys like me aren't learning anything. Can't you guys use your powers for good, instead of just fighting each other?
10-22-2013, 04:37 PM
#44
^ I think they are both right 
10-22-2013, 10:41 PM
#45
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Lol, ok. I'll make my recommendations and then SpitfireS can tell us why they're wrong. Personally I like a 5w30 for our cars and my particular climate, so that's what I'll reference.
So when I look at an oil report, I look for a couple of things. In no particular order, the first is the Total Base Number (TBN). As an engine runs, acid will build up in the oil, so manufacturers create additive packages that are basic in order to help neutralize this acid. The higher the TBN, the better the oil can combat the acid buildup. For me, I don't like for the TBN to be under 8.5. This isn't a hard and fast rule though, Pennzoil conventional has a TBN around 8.2 or 8.4 IIRC, but it makes up for it in the type and amount of it's additives, so it's pretty well regarded, especially for a conventional oil.
I also look at the NOAK volatility rating. I feel that this is pretty important, especially for our cars, as it tests how much of the oil cooks off during high temperatures, leaving behind deposits. After all, everyone likes a clean engine. I look for a NOAK of less than 10, with lower being better.
Let us not forget what we've been arguing about over the last several posts either. Viscosity! I like a thinner oil so that it helps prevent against wear at startup. Typically something less than 11.5cSt@100C and 62cSt@40C is good to shoot for.
Clearly I'm a big fan of Pennzoil Ultra 5w30, because I always mention it when oil threads come up. It has the lowest NOAK that I've ever seen, so low in fact that when the oil was first brought to market, people thought it was either an error or a lie. TBN is better than average and the viscosity is good. Not only that, but I was able to pick up 6 of the 5 quart jugs at Walmart for $20 a pop, so it was easy on my wallet as well. Otherwise, I believe it goes for about $27 per 5qt jug from Walmart (though Walmart seems to be phasing it out), making it $5.40 a quart.
TBN: 9.4
NOAK: 6.6
9.9cSt@100C
55.7cSt@40C
Another good oil is AMSOil Signature Series. Really high TBN with a very strong additive package makes this a super robust oil that's great for extended oil change intervals. The only thing I hate about it is the price, as a gallon (4 quarts) will run you about $40, plus whatever the cost of shipping is unless you can find it locally.
TBN: 12.8
NOAK: 7.6
10.7cSt@100C
60.5cSt@40C
Another good option that you'll see recommended on the board quite often is Castrol EDGE w/Titanium. Good TBN coupled with a unique additive package make it a good contender with these other two. Price is around $8.92/quart in my neck of the woods, so not exactly cheap, but not super expensive either.
TBN: 10.6
NOAK: 10.5
10.71cSt@100C
61.48cSt@40C
So when I look at an oil report, I look for a couple of things. In no particular order, the first is the Total Base Number (TBN). As an engine runs, acid will build up in the oil, so manufacturers create additive packages that are basic in order to help neutralize this acid. The higher the TBN, the better the oil can combat the acid buildup. For me, I don't like for the TBN to be under 8.5. This isn't a hard and fast rule though, Pennzoil conventional has a TBN around 8.2 or 8.4 IIRC, but it makes up for it in the type and amount of it's additives, so it's pretty well regarded, especially for a conventional oil.
I also look at the NOAK volatility rating. I feel that this is pretty important, especially for our cars, as it tests how much of the oil cooks off during high temperatures, leaving behind deposits. After all, everyone likes a clean engine. I look for a NOAK of less than 10, with lower being better.
Let us not forget what we've been arguing about over the last several posts either. Viscosity! I like a thinner oil so that it helps prevent against wear at startup. Typically something less than 11.5cSt@100C and 62cSt@40C is good to shoot for.
Clearly I'm a big fan of Pennzoil Ultra 5w30, because I always mention it when oil threads come up. It has the lowest NOAK that I've ever seen, so low in fact that when the oil was first brought to market, people thought it was either an error or a lie. TBN is better than average and the viscosity is good. Not only that, but I was able to pick up 6 of the 5 quart jugs at Walmart for $20 a pop, so it was easy on my wallet as well. Otherwise, I believe it goes for about $27 per 5qt jug from Walmart (though Walmart seems to be phasing it out), making it $5.40 a quart.
TBN: 9.4
NOAK: 6.6
9.9cSt@100C
55.7cSt@40C
Another good oil is AMSOil Signature Series. Really high TBN with a very strong additive package makes this a super robust oil that's great for extended oil change intervals. The only thing I hate about it is the price, as a gallon (4 quarts) will run you about $40, plus whatever the cost of shipping is unless you can find it locally.
TBN: 12.8
NOAK: 7.6
10.7cSt@100C
60.5cSt@40C
Another good option that you'll see recommended on the board quite often is Castrol EDGE w/Titanium. Good TBN coupled with a unique additive package make it a good contender with these other two. Price is around $8.92/quart in my neck of the woods, so not exactly cheap, but not super expensive either.
TBN: 10.6
NOAK: 10.5
10.71cSt@100C
61.48cSt@40C
10-22-2013, 11:23 PM
#46
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Wrong. Cold Cranking Viscosity is not the only requirement for the oil to make grade. According to SAE J300, Maximum Low Temperature Pumping Viscosity tested at -40C is also a requirement. So just because Ultra 5w30 meets the CCV requirement, that doesn't automatically make it a 0w marketed as a 5w.
The limit for 5W is also 60000 but at -35C.
And your Pennzoil has 13000 at -35C.
Pffieuwww... it barely does not make that limit now, doesn't it, so we're safe to label it 5W...... ohhh wait...IT DOES!
So what else can you come up with to NOT make this a 0W?
Is it the color of the bottle?
My straws may be thin, but they are real.
They are not high tech carbon fibres SOLD as straws because the general public can't handle carbon fibre.
10-23-2013, 01:08 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by XxMerlinxX' timestamp='1382484922' post='22841134
Wrong. Cold Cranking Viscosity is not the only requirement for the oil to make grade. According to SAE J300, Maximum Low Temperature Pumping Viscosity tested at -40C is also a requirement. So just because Ultra 5w30 meets the CCV requirement, that doesn't automatically make it a 0w marketed as a 5w.
The limit for 5W is also 60000 but at -35C.
And your Pennzoil has 13000 at -35C.
Pffieuwww... it barely does not make that limit now, doesn't it, so we're safe to label it 5W...... ohhh wait...IT DOES!
Why is it you refuse to listen to reason. Even if the PU 5w30 WAS actually a 0w oil, which it's not, I've listed four other 5w oils that still prove you wrong. Unless of course you're alleging that those are also 0w oils in disguise and you have access to some super secret CCS/MLTPV numbers. There must be some sort of mass coverup by the oil manufacturers to conceal 0w oils as 5w oils to fool the general public. Do you have your ears plugged and your tinfoil hat on?
10-23-2013, 04:28 AM
#48
i see that you are pretty knowledgeable on the oil subject and frankly i cant and dont want to understand oil that intimately like merlin and spitfire. just looking for a recommendation with layman's terms. i want to run amsoil engine oils as well. my car only sees autocross during the season. i just received a case of Amsoil OE 5w30. i see that you ordered the Euro 5w40. i have heard great things about rotella t6 which also is a 5w40 and compared to euro blends. is your car N/A? i just need a pretty decent oil that will protect my car without breaking my pocket. any suggestions? ive heard of people running the XL line and the SSO. but since my car will never see 10k miles in a year is it worth running the XL? SSO is quite expensive, but i guess i can get away with changing oil twice over the year?
10-23-2013, 04:53 AM
#49
Banned
Merlin.. send that OE oil back. It is NOT designed for a high performance application and will not last very long at all in an s2000. I have tested pretty much all of the Amsoil oil's and in 2 hondas after only 4k miles with OE we had cam lobes wiped. One car was an 03 Accord 4 cylinder and the other was my 2012 civic si.
as for the XwXX, Here's a very simple explanation and we wont argue semantics. the 2 numbers do refer to weight, viscosity, thickness whatever you want, the concept is the same. the low number is when the engine is cold, the high number is when its hot.
When the oil is cold a 0 weight is still "thicker" than a 30 weight when its warm. The "weight" numbers are only directly comparable at the same temperature. At the same temp 0 flows better than 30. 30 is 30 regardless of what the smaller number is. If its 50deg outside or 0 deg outside 0w is still less than 5w
IE. Once the engine is up to temp, there should be no real difference between a 0w30, 5w30 or 10w30.
I said REAL because you number cruncher types will say but wait there is.. yeah there is a difference but it doesnt matter, the engine doesnt care.
If you have the ability to run a 0wXX run it, there is no advantage to using a 5w or 10w over a 0w. 0w works better on startup, thats a fact.
Now do you want w30, w20, w40, w - whatever... thats what your oil pressure gauge is for. If you dont have a gauge then run 0w30. You dont want the oil pressure to build up superfast in the rpms and you dont need more than 80psi max.
If you have 80psi at 2000 rpms or 100psi max you are just making more work for the oil pump and heating the oil up for no good reason. Bearing clearances determine your oil pressure. Modern motors are pretty tight for the most part.
also.. oil weights are kind of like tire tread ratings. you can easily compare tires from the same mfr, and kind of compare different brands, but they wont always "cross" exactly the same.
In the chart above.. the difference between a cold viscosity of 55 and 59 is one of those things where yeah it is "different" and one is "better" but at the end of the day that difference is not one your engine is going to care about.
They run the pensoil ultra 5w40 in all the dodge srt8 cars (its what mopar required for use in cars with a service contract/extended warranty), when I was a tech at the dodge dealer we were putting cams and lifters in those things on a regular basis. The guys than run amsoil 5w40 never had cam/lifter issues.
as for the XwXX, Here's a very simple explanation and we wont argue semantics. the 2 numbers do refer to weight, viscosity, thickness whatever you want, the concept is the same. the low number is when the engine is cold, the high number is when its hot.
When the oil is cold a 0 weight is still "thicker" than a 30 weight when its warm. The "weight" numbers are only directly comparable at the same temperature. At the same temp 0 flows better than 30. 30 is 30 regardless of what the smaller number is. If its 50deg outside or 0 deg outside 0w is still less than 5w
IE. Once the engine is up to temp, there should be no real difference between a 0w30, 5w30 or 10w30.
I said REAL because you number cruncher types will say but wait there is.. yeah there is a difference but it doesnt matter, the engine doesnt care.
If you have the ability to run a 0wXX run it, there is no advantage to using a 5w or 10w over a 0w. 0w works better on startup, thats a fact.
Now do you want w30, w20, w40, w - whatever... thats what your oil pressure gauge is for. If you dont have a gauge then run 0w30. You dont want the oil pressure to build up superfast in the rpms and you dont need more than 80psi max.
If you have 80psi at 2000 rpms or 100psi max you are just making more work for the oil pump and heating the oil up for no good reason. Bearing clearances determine your oil pressure. Modern motors are pretty tight for the most part.
also.. oil weights are kind of like tire tread ratings. you can easily compare tires from the same mfr, and kind of compare different brands, but they wont always "cross" exactly the same.
In the chart above.. the difference between a cold viscosity of 55 and 59 is one of those things where yeah it is "different" and one is "better" but at the end of the day that difference is not one your engine is going to care about.
They run the pensoil ultra 5w40 in all the dodge srt8 cars (its what mopar required for use in cars with a service contract/extended warranty), when I was a tech at the dodge dealer we were putting cams and lifters in those things on a regular basis. The guys than run amsoil 5w40 never had cam/lifter issues.
10-23-2013, 05:22 AM
#50
Merlin.. send that OE oil back. It is NOT designed for a high performance application and will not last very long at all in an s2000. I have tested pretty much all of the Amsoil oil's and in 2 hondas after only 4k miles with OE we had cam lobes wiped. One car was an 03 Accord 4 cylinder and the other was my 2012 civic si.
as for the XwXX, Here's a very simple explanation and we wont argue semantics. the 2 numbers do refer to weight, viscosity, thickness whatever you want, the concept is the same. the low number is when the engine is cold, the high number is when its hot.
When the oil is cold a 0 weight is still "thicker" than a 30 weight when its warm. The "weight" numbers are only directly comparable at the same temperature. At the same temp 0 flows better than 30. 30 is 30 regardless of what the smaller number is. If its 50deg outside or 0 deg outside 0w is still less than 5w
IE. Once the engine is up to temp, there should be no real difference between a 0w30, 5w30 or 10w30.
I said REAL because you number cruncher types will say but wait there is.. yeah there is a difference but it doesnt matter, the engine doesnt care.
If you have the ability to run a 0wXX run it, there is no advantage to using a 5w or 10w over a 0w. 0w works better on startup, thats a fact.
Now do you want w30, w20, w40, w - whatever... thats what your oil pressure gauge is for. If you dont have a gauge then run 0w30. You dont want the oil pressure to build up superfast in the rpms and you dont need more than 80psi max.
If you have 80psi at 2000 rpms or 100psi max you are just making more work for the oil pump and heating the oil up for no good reason. Bearing clearances determine your oil pressure. Modern motors are pretty tight for the most part.
also.. oil weights are kind of like tire tread ratings. you can easily compare tires from the same mfr, and kind of compare different brands, but they wont always "cross" exactly the same.
In the chart above.. the difference between a cold viscosity of 55 and 59 is one of those things where yeah it is "different" and one is "better" but at the end of the day that difference is not one your engine is going to care about.
They run the pensoil ultra 5w40 in all the dodge srt8 cars (its what mopar required for use in cars with a service contract/extended warranty), when I was a tech at the dodge dealer we were putting cams and lifters in those things on a regular basis. The guys than run amsoil 5w40 never had cam/lifter issues.
as for the XwXX, Here's a very simple explanation and we wont argue semantics. the 2 numbers do refer to weight, viscosity, thickness whatever you want, the concept is the same. the low number is when the engine is cold, the high number is when its hot.
When the oil is cold a 0 weight is still "thicker" than a 30 weight when its warm. The "weight" numbers are only directly comparable at the same temperature. At the same temp 0 flows better than 30. 30 is 30 regardless of what the smaller number is. If its 50deg outside or 0 deg outside 0w is still less than 5w
IE. Once the engine is up to temp, there should be no real difference between a 0w30, 5w30 or 10w30.
I said REAL because you number cruncher types will say but wait there is.. yeah there is a difference but it doesnt matter, the engine doesnt care.
If you have the ability to run a 0wXX run it, there is no advantage to using a 5w or 10w over a 0w. 0w works better on startup, thats a fact.
Now do you want w30, w20, w40, w - whatever... thats what your oil pressure gauge is for. If you dont have a gauge then run 0w30. You dont want the oil pressure to build up superfast in the rpms and you dont need more than 80psi max.
If you have 80psi at 2000 rpms or 100psi max you are just making more work for the oil pump and heating the oil up for no good reason. Bearing clearances determine your oil pressure. Modern motors are pretty tight for the most part.
also.. oil weights are kind of like tire tread ratings. you can easily compare tires from the same mfr, and kind of compare different brands, but they wont always "cross" exactly the same.
In the chart above.. the difference between a cold viscosity of 55 and 59 is one of those things where yeah it is "different" and one is "better" but at the end of the day that difference is not one your engine is going to care about.
They run the pensoil ultra 5w40 in all the dodge srt8 cars (its what mopar required for use in cars with a service contract/extended warranty), when I was a tech at the dodge dealer we were putting cams and lifters in those things on a regular basis. The guys than run amsoil 5w40 never had cam/lifter issues.