Nobody

Where did I say you want heat in your calipers? Surely in an ideal world you'd want your calipers to be ice cold like yours, but c'mon--heat is transferred from the pad to the piston to the caliper. Even if it wasn't compressing the fluid repeatedly in a race would heat up a caliper even if no heat from the rotor/pad was able to reach it.

The Wilwood kit also has 2 piece rotors. They are vaned and slotted and the higher heat capacity of the aluminum hats transfers less heat to the hub. What exactly makes them inferior to the Pinnacle system?

slipstream444

I'm quoting what you said ...

"I don't care what CALIPERS you're running--if they don't have a significant increase in mass (the Pinnacle system does not) they're not going to have a significant increase in thermal capacity"

Those are your words. Perhaps you meant rotors, but I'm not a mind reader.

Once again, thermal capacity is not a primary design criterion in calipers. Therefore, you want them to be as light as possible. Are they going to experience some heat transfer ... you bet. However, unless you're running a highly conductive pad ... and pads are not supposed to conduct heat, so why would you ... your calipers will stay fairly cool - especially when compared to your rotors.
The friction surfaces of your rotors are supposed to absorb and reject heat as quickly as possible and minimize heat transfer to any other components.

(As for my rotors: they weigh a total of 0.3lbs less than stock. Now let

Nobody

If I could believe the data then I'd say the Pinnacle system is fing incredible and I'd throw out my rotors, pads, calipers, ducting and tires and go with your setup. But sorry dude, I just don't believe the validity of your tests. First of all you admit to exaggeration (ice ice baby) but then you say the Pinnacle reduces braking distances by 35%. If you do the math on that your stock 119' 60-0 distances would end up being a mind numbing 77'. For comparison an Enzo takes 106' to get from 60 to 0. Add hyperbole to something that's just unbelievable and even a layman who doesn't know all that much about brakes (me) knows enough to know something doesn't add up. Best thing I can figure is that you had a problem with your stock system that was increasing braking distances and when you switched to the Pinnacle you fixed the problem. That doesn't mean that the Pinnacle system is responsible for the decrease in braking distances.

The stock system is damn good, as are ALL of the aftermarket kits. As long as you can hit ABS with the stock system you've got to change the electronics or the tires if you want to decrease stopping distances more than a few feet. When things heat up--sure, a system with better themal/cooling capacity will way outbrake stock. I haven't seen a test of any bbk that decreases the distances on any car. In most cases the distances INCREASE by about 1-2% over stock until things heat up. I'm factoring your data in with my experiences and every test I've read--your claims seem just too exceptional.

RACER

You can't be serious.

slipstream444

It isn't 'compressing' the fluid. Hydraulic systems pressurize the fluid, but do not compress the fluid because the fluid is incompressible, unless there's air in the system.

This is a common misconception. Compression is the process of changing the volume of a substance. Your brake system does not change the volume of the fluid to produce pressure.

Now you are correct in that heat is produced due to the pressure rise in your braking system when you apply the brakes. Again, this is not due to compression.

slipstream444

I was saying the same thing to myself when I read your analogy. I figured I would try to be nice even though your analogy was ridiculous at best.
I thought to myself ... did he read what he posted, and did he even put any thought into what he's trying to say?

RACER

[QUOTE=slipstream444,Oct 6 2004, 09:31 PM]
you do not have a solid grasp on fluid dynamics.

slipstream444

If you read my posts completely, the 35% decrease was a comparison for the near 120MPH runs I did. I even admitted the tests could not be completely validated (120MPH tests) because I could only run the stock brakes once due to the poor results and excessive heat produced. Therefore it's hard to record an actual scientific baseline based on one run. But the reduction in distance was substantial.

The 60-0 tests were repeated and those are the real numbers. Like them or not. You can slice them, you can dice them, but you can't ignore 'em
BTW, the '02 MR2 has braking distances averaging 99 feet from 60 according to several sources - so how hard is it to believe that my S2000 is now producing those numbers?

As for a problem with the stock system ... nope. Most of the tests from C&D, R&T, and several other mags show the stock S2000 producing braking distances around 115-120' depending on the conditions. My stock brakes were right in the ballpark there sport. The reduction (as I stated in a previous post) was around 23-24% from 60-0. READ before you jump - and stop trying to spin my words.

The fact of the matter is that I could conduct the test in front of you and you wouldn't believe it. Believe what you want.
The Pinnacle system is a fantastic system and while it's expensive, it's worth every penny. I've driven an S2000 with the Willwood 4 puck and 6 puck systems and found the 4 puck no different than stock and the 6 puck only marginally better. The Pinnacle system is simply better.

slipstream444

Geez ... people are sooo sensitive on this site ... especially when the come out of the gates like tigers attacking a subject as if they knew what they were talking about.
Yes, I was being nice because your analogy was not even close. I could have been like one of my profs and really make a belittling remark, but I didn't - and then you have the gall to attack my intelligence. C'mon!

I have a pretty good grasp on physics ... so when you come out and repeatedly try to correct me when you don't understand the principles at hand ... you're going to hear about it. This is nothing personal ... you can take it constructively or personal ... I care not.
I can assure you I'd never try to tell Road Rage something about oils ... because he's the prof and I'm the student in that science. I understand braking systems more than you can imagine. Several times a week I wrestle 250,000 lbs of aircraft down from 130+knots and I have to understand those principles and systems very well in order to survive any malfunction that may come my way. The system in the S2000 is infinitesimally simpler and much easier to understand - however the principles are very similar. Enough said.

RACER

Less volume=more pressure, more volume=less pressure. If you took a hose 1/2" in diameter and connected a 1 1/2" hose to it, you would have more volume, but less pressure. If you did the opposite, reduced a hose 1 1/2 " in diameter and reduced it to 1/2", you would have less flow but more pressure. It is a quite simple concept that I learned on a Toyota Atlantic Race team. I also have had the privilege of talking with the legendary Carol Smith on two occasions and I have also spoken with Derrick Dong (Technical director of Performance Friction) Performance Friction supplys pads for many teams in NASCAR as well as numerous CART teams. The drivers that like more feel in the brake pedal go with smaller caliper pistons and or smaller brake lines. The drivers that like a little bit less feel in the brake pedal go with a larger caliper piston and or larger diameter brake lines.

I don't know where the hell your coming from, but CART racing is serious shit. Carol smith has been an engineer for over forty years and was involved in Fords domination of the 24 hours of Le Mans in the late 60's. Derrick Dong is a well known, respected individual in motorsports when it comes to brakes.

The garden hose theory was just an example that Derrick spoke of. I suppose that Derrick is wrong and you are right Einstein.

These forums are open for discussion. They can be educational, entertaining and fun. If somebody writes something that you do not understand, thats quite alright. Just don't go shooting off your mouth and belittling people.