9 psi w/ emanage
12-16-2004, 09:05 AM
#11
I think you're going to want bigger injectors and I don't think an emanage will handle them very well. I've never used emanage, its just what I've read here and been told in the shop. I do know that an aem works great with a smaller pulley and larger injectors.
fltsfshr
fltsfshr
12-16-2004, 09:06 AM
#12
Originally Posted by ultimate lurker,Dec 13 2004, 12:45 PM
Hey Phil, does your car behave unacceptably at low rpm and throttle openings? 
As UL mentioned, I'm running great at low rpms and all speeds.
I'm currently running 750s. I give credit to UL and his talents as a tuner. 
12-16-2004, 12:40 PM
#15
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It is not possible to have a properly running S2000 with larger injectors at the low rpm range. By that I mean, if you intend to adhere to stock running spec. It is just not feasible with the e-manage. Sure you can run whatever A/F you like with stand alone, however you will not be able to meet ULEV emissions.
Getting a car to run well at WOT is easy with whatever management system, whether it's e-manage or standalone...no problem...anyone can do that. Getting a car to maintain stock like part throttle tuning with a standalone is impossible. Anyone that says they can is wrong and or has no idea nor any understanding how good the stock ECU handles part throttle.
Having run standalones in other cars as well, I know they can never run 100% like stock in part throttle, never will they run as clean. You will never be able to get a car to run properly no matter how well you work on the compensation tables. A car with a standalone driven from San Antonio to Denver will need a tuning to run properly from one place to the other. A stock car will not need any tuning.
The 440cc come close to running clean, but anywhere from 15% TPS up, I can get it running to about 1%-2% from stock fuel trim, but they can not work at low rpm part throttle below 15% TPS (idle-4000rpm or so).Just to clarify what I mean, by that I mean, monitoring the short term fuel trim, I can see that it can not adhere to the +/- 1.56% which is what the stock system allows for. It just can't be done.
A piggy back is obviously the best management system one can run because it saves you the headaches of compensation tuning, as standalones are a total downgrade in drivability in part throttle...again assuming you care about maintaining ULEV levels, like I do. The standalone's limitations are an eye openner to the high capability of a stock ECU.
If one doesn't care about emissions then they can run something safe with a standalone and call it done. It is easier to do and requires little work, no miracles required is what I am saying, you don't even have to be accurate in your tuning. I have a social and ethical responsibility to maintain and sell a clean system. So it's completely unacceptable to me.
The simple truth is, there are no injectors on the market designed for the S2000. These larger injectors have a very different spary pattern from what the S2000, and most imports in general, run. These Lucas injectors flooding the market can not delivery the fuel pattern our engines need, hence they're always inferior. They make up by volume, spray more fuel and eventually enough reaches where it needs to go.
cheers
W
Getting a car to run well at WOT is easy with whatever management system, whether it's e-manage or standalone...no problem...anyone can do that. Getting a car to maintain stock like part throttle tuning with a standalone is impossible. Anyone that says they can is wrong and or has no idea nor any understanding how good the stock ECU handles part throttle.
Having run standalones in other cars as well, I know they can never run 100% like stock in part throttle, never will they run as clean. You will never be able to get a car to run properly no matter how well you work on the compensation tables. A car with a standalone driven from San Antonio to Denver will need a tuning to run properly from one place to the other. A stock car will not need any tuning.
The 440cc come close to running clean, but anywhere from 15% TPS up, I can get it running to about 1%-2% from stock fuel trim, but they can not work at low rpm part throttle below 15% TPS (idle-4000rpm or so).Just to clarify what I mean, by that I mean, monitoring the short term fuel trim, I can see that it can not adhere to the +/- 1.56% which is what the stock system allows for. It just can't be done.
A piggy back is obviously the best management system one can run because it saves you the headaches of compensation tuning, as standalones are a total downgrade in drivability in part throttle...again assuming you care about maintaining ULEV levels, like I do. The standalone's limitations are an eye openner to the high capability of a stock ECU.
If one doesn't care about emissions then they can run something safe with a standalone and call it done. It is easier to do and requires little work, no miracles required is what I am saying, you don't even have to be accurate in your tuning. I have a social and ethical responsibility to maintain and sell a clean system. So it's completely unacceptable to me.
The simple truth is, there are no injectors on the market designed for the S2000. These larger injectors have a very different spary pattern from what the S2000, and most imports in general, run. These Lucas injectors flooding the market can not delivery the fuel pattern our engines need, hence they're always inferior. They make up by volume, spray more fuel and eventually enough reaches where it needs to go.
cheers
W
12-16-2004, 03:07 PM
#16
Registered User
Sorry Wael, but I have to disagree. My comment about Phil's car was a back handed insult of the Emanage. I've tuned more than a few, but they simply have too many limitations when running big injectors. Even the guys at Greddy know this and have worked with Hondata on some complimentary fixes for the K-series turbo kits.
With a good standalone and O2 sensor, retuning for different locations isn't an issue, nor is part throttle. The key is making sure you have closed loop capability with an O2 sensor. The drawback of the AEM EMS is that to get effective closed loop you need their wideband, the stock O2 won't cut it with AEM's control schema. Fuel corrections for temperature and altitude are quite simple as well, if you take the time to make them.
As a middle point, take the Hondata systems for various engines. They use a completely user programmable fuel and timing map setup. And then they retain the OEM closed loop control and temperature compensation. As long as you're close on part throttle (and closer is better) and enable closed loop with an O2 sensor, the cars run very clean like stock. In fact, we've had more than one customer fail emissions only to install a Hondata, have it tuned properly and go back and pass with flying colors, often as clean as, or cleaner than a totally stock car.
There is no reason why something such as an AEM EMS cannot match this performance when tuned properly and retaining a catalytic converter. It may not retain startup emissions on a car like the S2000 due to the loss of the air injection system, but other than that, no problem. The only difference between how a Hondata works and the AEM is that you have to create your own compensation tables on the AEM (which is why they are more expensive to tune - among other reasons). I am currently street testing an 04 S2000 with an AEM EMS (pretty much stock other than that) and its part throttle performance, even without a wideband, is terrific (noticeably better than stock), and fuel mileage is approximately the same as stock.
The stock ECU is fabulous, and retaining the stock control functionality with user alterable tables would be best, but proper tuning with an effective stand alone can yield fantastic results. Ask Phil about his part throttle response and whether its crisper and more responsive than stock. And he's not even running a wideband yet! The only reason to go with an Emanage is to retain OBDII functionality, but let's be honest, most people with an Emanage are still skirting the emissions laws in some way shape or form.
UL
With a good standalone and O2 sensor, retuning for different locations isn't an issue, nor is part throttle. The key is making sure you have closed loop capability with an O2 sensor. The drawback of the AEM EMS is that to get effective closed loop you need their wideband, the stock O2 won't cut it with AEM's control schema. Fuel corrections for temperature and altitude are quite simple as well, if you take the time to make them.
As a middle point, take the Hondata systems for various engines. They use a completely user programmable fuel and timing map setup. And then they retain the OEM closed loop control and temperature compensation. As long as you're close on part throttle (and closer is better) and enable closed loop with an O2 sensor, the cars run very clean like stock. In fact, we've had more than one customer fail emissions only to install a Hondata, have it tuned properly and go back and pass with flying colors, often as clean as, or cleaner than a totally stock car.
There is no reason why something such as an AEM EMS cannot match this performance when tuned properly and retaining a catalytic converter. It may not retain startup emissions on a car like the S2000 due to the loss of the air injection system, but other than that, no problem. The only difference between how a Hondata works and the AEM is that you have to create your own compensation tables on the AEM (which is why they are more expensive to tune - among other reasons). I am currently street testing an 04 S2000 with an AEM EMS (pretty much stock other than that) and its part throttle performance, even without a wideband, is terrific (noticeably better than stock), and fuel mileage is approximately the same as stock.
The stock ECU is fabulous, and retaining the stock control functionality with user alterable tables would be best, but proper tuning with an effective stand alone can yield fantastic results. Ask Phil about his part throttle response and whether its crisper and more responsive than stock. And he's not even running a wideband yet! The only reason to go with an Emanage is to retain OBDII functionality, but let's be honest, most people with an Emanage are still skirting the emissions laws in some way shape or form.
UL
12-16-2004, 03:07 PM
#17
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I ran 600 cc injectors for about 1 1/2 years with an UR turbo system and e-manage. The car ran great with the exception of low load, low rpm steady state driving. Under those conditions, the throttle was like a switch - couldn't hold a steady speed. I would have to accelerate very very slowly, trying to maintain a steady speed, or the injectors would completely shut off and the car would gear down. Got use to driving it this way though and was very satisfied with the whole setup. A/F ratios were excellent. 14.7 at idle and steady speed conditions, and mid 12 range for boosted conditions. With 440 cc injectors, the car ran as stock.
So, in answer to your question, 440 cc will work great and you shouldn't have any problem tuning it with the e-manage if you have a wide band in the car.
So, in answer to your question, 440 cc will work great and you shouldn't have any problem tuning it with the e-manage if you have a wide band in the car.
12-17-2004, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by revhi,Dec 17 2004, 11:46 AM
I was going to get 440's to go alnog with my emanage, but just out of curiosity. Would I see any gains with the emanage on the stock injectors?
If you need an Emanage let me know.