4.57 or 4.77
02-21-2007, 10:43 PM
#21
I have the 4.77's, but reading what you wrote in the original post, I would lean toward 4.57's for you.
02-22-2007, 12:39 AM
#22
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: 17 ft below sea level.
Posts: 4,949
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
16 Posts
My thoughts on the gear whine:
Left is the 4.57 pinion, right the oem 4.10.
IMO because the 4.57 pinion only has 7 teeth, less of them are in contact with the ring at one time, making it less of a gradual engagement when the next tooth arrives, so to speak.
With only 7 teeth there are less - but firmer - starting points per revolution.
With the 10 teeth pinion there are more - but softer - starting contact points per revolution of the pinion.
A starting point is the start of a sound IMO (think of straight cut gears, they have a starting line = more noise), if you have more softer starting points per revolution the noise is less, 10 little taps vs 7 harder taps.
Richmond Gear also changed the tooth design after the first production run to reduce gear noise, that's why the later sets are called 4.57R (R for revised).
Tooth design is a factor too.
If the mesh is set to Richmond Gear specs the gears will last, no doubt.
In that case the whine is just an added bonus
The new 4.56 sets have 9 teeth on the pinion and 41 on the ring.
Closer to OEM teeth count = less noise.
Note that Richmond Gear (you know.. the manufacturer, the people that know best
) recommends SAE 75W-140 gear oil for their gear sets.
I'm using LE-607 now (SAE 90) and am thinking about getting some LE-608 (the SAE 140 brother of LE-607) to create a slightly thicker oil.
I've seen a couple of in-car video's of track cars, (not S2000's), you know the kind, stripped interior, sequential gearbox and the lot.
The gear noise was incredible!
4.57 gear whine compared to that was as silent as a Sunday morning.
Left is the 4.57 pinion, right the oem 4.10.
IMO because the 4.57 pinion only has 7 teeth, less of them are in contact with the ring at one time, making it less of a gradual engagement when the next tooth arrives, so to speak.
With only 7 teeth there are less - but firmer - starting points per revolution.
With the 10 teeth pinion there are more - but softer - starting contact points per revolution of the pinion.
A starting point is the start of a sound IMO (think of straight cut gears, they have a starting line = more noise), if you have more softer starting points per revolution the noise is less, 10 little taps vs 7 harder taps.
Richmond Gear also changed the tooth design after the first production run to reduce gear noise, that's why the later sets are called 4.57R (R for revised).
Tooth design is a factor too.
If the mesh is set to Richmond Gear specs the gears will last, no doubt.
In that case the whine is just an added bonus
The new 4.56 sets have 9 teeth on the pinion and 41 on the ring.
Closer to OEM teeth count = less noise.
Note that Richmond Gear (you know.. the manufacturer, the people that know best
) recommends SAE 75W-140 gear oil for their gear sets.I'm using LE-607 now (SAE 90) and am thinking about getting some LE-608 (the SAE 140 brother of LE-607) to create a slightly thicker oil.
I've seen a couple of in-car video's of track cars, (not S2000's), you know the kind, stripped interior, sequential gearbox and the lot.
The gear noise was incredible!
4.57 gear whine compared to that was as silent as a Sunday morning.
02-22-2007, 01:16 PM
#24
Registered User
Originally Posted by SpitfireS,Feb 22 2007, 01:39 AM
My thoughts on the gear whine:
Left is the 4.57 pinion, right the oem 4.10.
IMO because the 4.57 pinion only has 7 teeth, less of them are in contact with the ring at one time, making it less of a gradual engagement when the next tooth arrives, so to speak.
With only 7 teeth there are less - but firmer - starting points per revolution.
With the 10 teeth pinion there are more - but softer - starting contact points per revolution of the pinion.
A starting point is the start of a sound IMO (think of straight cut gears, they have a starting line = more noise), if you have more softer starting points per revolution the noise is less, 10 little taps vs 7 harder taps.
Richmond Gear also changed the tooth design after the first production run to reduce gear noise, that's why the later sets are called 4.57R (R for revised).
Tooth design is a factor too.
If the mesh is set to Richmond Gear specs the gears will last, no doubt.
In that case the whine is just an added bonus
The new 4.56 sets have 9 teeth on the pinion and 41 on the ring.
Closer to OEM teeth count = less noise.
Note that Richmond Gear (you know.. the manufacturer, the people that know best ) recommends SAE 75W-140 gear oil for their gear sets.
I'm using LE-607 now (SAE 90) and am thinking about getting some LE-608 (the SAE 140 brother of LE-607) to create a slightly thicker oil.
I've seen a couple of in-car video's of track cars, (not S2000's), you know the kind, stripped interior, sequential gearbox and the lot.
The gear noise was incredible!
4.57 gear whine compared to that was as silent as a Sunday morning.
Left is the 4.57 pinion, right the oem 4.10.
IMO because the 4.57 pinion only has 7 teeth, less of them are in contact with the ring at one time, making it less of a gradual engagement when the next tooth arrives, so to speak.
With only 7 teeth there are less - but firmer - starting points per revolution.
With the 10 teeth pinion there are more - but softer - starting contact points per revolution of the pinion.
A starting point is the start of a sound IMO (think of straight cut gears, they have a starting line = more noise), if you have more softer starting points per revolution the noise is less, 10 little taps vs 7 harder taps.
Richmond Gear also changed the tooth design after the first production run to reduce gear noise, that's why the later sets are called 4.57R (R for revised).
Tooth design is a factor too.
If the mesh is set to Richmond Gear specs the gears will last, no doubt.
In that case the whine is just an added bonus
The new 4.56 sets have 9 teeth on the pinion and 41 on the ring.
Closer to OEM teeth count = less noise.
Note that Richmond Gear (you know.. the manufacturer, the people that know best
) recommends SAE 75W-140 gear oil for their gear sets.I'm using LE-607 now (SAE 90) and am thinking about getting some LE-608 (the SAE 140 brother of LE-607) to create a slightly thicker oil.
I've seen a couple of in-car video's of track cars, (not S2000's), you know the kind, stripped interior, sequential gearbox and the lot.
The gear noise was incredible!
4.57 gear whine compared to that was as silent as a Sunday morning.
And where do you get 608?
I'd like a response from HTG or Rick about this.
02-22-2007, 01:20 PM
#25
Originally Posted by jasonjm,Feb 22 2007, 04:16 PM
If they recommend 608, why is everyone using 607???
And where do you get 608?
I'd like a response from HTG or Rick about this.
And where do you get 608?
I'd like a response from HTG or Rick about this.
LE 607 is a SAE 90. That is what Honda recomends for the S2000 and that is what we do too. Honda is the authority on this point, not Richmond.
02-22-2007, 03:09 PM
#26
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: 17 ft below sea level.
Posts: 4,949
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
16 Posts
Stratocaster Posted on Feb 22 2007, 11:20 PM
If Honda was the designer and manufacturer of all critical diff parts I would agree.
The Torsen LSD unit is non Honda design.
Quote from Torsen website:
The OEM gear set is made by...?
Mazda? Kia? Certainly not Honda.
Honda may have picked the ratio.
(and the wrong one..haha!)
The S2000's diff is about a 1/3 filled with oil.
The pinion is close to being fully submerged with oil.
A slightly thicker oil will IMO not upset the splash lubrication while driving.
I've looked at a lot multigrade xxW-140 gear oils to compare data given by the manufacturer.
Most are around 24 cSt at 100C.
LE-607 has a viscosity of 20.9 at 100C, allready very close.
Mixing some LE-607 & 608 to get to that number is worth a try.
On my own authority
One thing to watch is pour point.
The freezer test will provide enough data for me.
IOW, if the oil mixture still moves around in the bottle after a night in the freezer @ -18C I'm happy.
P.S. The much loved Mobil 1 75W-90 gear oil is only 15.2 cSt at 100C
Thats a mighty 27% less then LE-607
Honda is the authority on this point, not Richmond.
If Honda was the designer and manufacturer of all critical diff parts I would agree.The Torsen LSD unit is non Honda design.
Quote from Torsen website:
A 75W-90 is recommended, but higher or lower viscosities can be used if they meet GL-4 or GL-5 specification. Either synthetic or conventional oils can be used as well.
Mazda? Kia? Certainly not Honda.
Honda may have picked the ratio.
(and the wrong one..haha!)
The S2000's diff is about a 1/3 filled with oil.
The pinion is close to being fully submerged with oil.
A slightly thicker oil will IMO not upset the splash lubrication while driving.
I've looked at a lot multigrade xxW-140 gear oils to compare data given by the manufacturer.
Most are around 24 cSt at 100C.
LE-607 has a viscosity of 20.9 at 100C, allready very close.
Mixing some LE-607 & 608 to get to that number is worth a try.
On my own authority
One thing to watch is pour point.
The freezer test will provide enough data for me.
IOW, if the oil mixture still moves around in the bottle after a night in the freezer @ -18C I'm happy.
P.S. The much loved Mobil 1 75W-90 gear oil is only 15.2 cSt at 100C
Thats a mighty 27% less then LE-607
02-22-2007, 08:28 PM
#27
Gears are EXREMELY complex to manufacture and inspect. The pinion gear is a helical gear..one of the most complex. The number of teeth is meaningless without respect to the surface area in contact. Even if one tries to compare the surface area of the gears this; other concerns prevail (although to a lesser extent). There are other factors like how much of the contact area and when does it contact? In gear terms these are specifications such as Flank Angles and Pressure Angles. Inspection of these features after machining is near impossible (unless you own what is known in gear industry as a "RedLiner"). Bottom line is understand that certain mods may change the tone or performance of the vehicle.
Utah
P.S. The gears you are referring to are manufactured by a very reputable house and are being distributed by an even better distributor...IMHO.
Utah
P.S. The gears you are referring to are manufactured by a very reputable house and are being distributed by an even better distributor...IMHO.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post