Supra-holic

How did you take the sample? I assume it was a downstream sample from the drain plug hole. Was the oil hot, did you let it run out a little before you took the sample?

No issues with Mobil 1 here on my AP2, last sample I took was at 175K miles and the numbers are lower than the OPs and I run 8K intervals.

Saki GT

I don't know about junk, but there's a lot of discussion here that Mobil1 doesn't work as well in an S2000 engine as it does in other engines; these test results could back that up, but since its the first UOA in a new to you car and you changed oil, it would depend on a second UOA and a comparison.

duffsr

Nice post. Thanks for it and i may go this route in the future.

Sample was taken after about a 20 mile highway trip, cooled for a while, mid drain downstrean plug hole. Oil was still pretty warm.

I have a really short commute and have driven the car hard (i.e. driven almost every nice day but only 3,400 miles in a year), I will see what the numbers look like after the next change.

I don't imagine my numbers are a good reference point, with my outlier driving habbits, but I'll be curious to see how this 6 months of M1 10w30 looks, but I'm going to something like GC or redline 0w30 after it.

robotvoice

Sheared down to a 20 grade in 3,400 miles? Yikes.

INDYMAC

Now I am not familiar with the F20/F22's specifically (still new to S2000's) as far as where every metal/alloy would be coming from so I cant speak from authority here. But, if there is any copper tubing used (fuel lines/lube cooler) yet another thing that can happen is a "leaching" effect, a chemical reaction that can occur from different additives reacting along with heating and cooling of parts. This can show up on a wear metals spectroscopy report as much as 300-600 or more PPM of Cu. Sounds terrible right? Check it out using Analytical Ferrography (microscope) and you will not even be able to see it, although you will still see all the Iron, Lead, dirt, etc that may normally be present. This happens in the healthiest of engines and is not considered a wear condition. Just something to consider, but again, I am not familiar with just how much copper is in our S2000's and seeing copper may well be from bearings. But TYPICALLY with bearings it is higher (or equal) lead than the copper, or lead and tin with some copper. "Toasted" bearings or ones on their way out might show higher copper than lead/tin as you have worn thru the overlay. Not trying to scare the OP!

It is true you don't see the bigger wear particles with standard wear metals testing (for that you need Ferrography, Filter debris analysis and other expensive options) but the up to 10 microns you do see will usually be representative of any wear conditions or wear build-up that are present. On the flip side, I have HAVE had reports that show signs of cylinder region (rings/liners) wear with no direct cause in a standard UOA test package. Then you look at it under a microscope and you can see large chunks of dirt and abrasives that clearly are causing the wear. (Keep your K&N's oiled!!)

I agree that UOA trending is that way to go to really get an idea of what is going on in your engine but a single shot UOA can tell you a lot. Besides coolant leaks of course you can have fuel dilution issues that result in thinning of the oil and "washing-out" of the cylinder walls. When I got involved in this industry I sampled my track car for the first time and found 3.9% fuel dilution that was causing piston, ring and liner wear. I had no idea this was going on otherwise. A little searching revealed that my distributor cap, which was replaced two years prior, was actually worn out and therefore was creating a weak spark. Replaced it, put new fluid in, did some track/autocross and enjoyed the 10-15 hp I had not realized I had lost. A new sample was taken and convinced me this was the issue; Fuel dilution was a trace amount, VIS was back to the correct range and wear was substantially less, all this on even more miles.

Trending is best to find the condition of the oil itself and to find out just how long you can safely go between changes, assuming no contamination or wear conditions. Your TBN and Oxidation/Nitration values will give you a good idea of how much useful life the additive pack has left in it. Throw in a TAN test if you really want to get fanatical about it.

If you sample via the dipstick you never have to change your oil until you know you NEED to
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Good discussion Bird Shot. I try to do UOA's on all of my vehicles about every 15K miles. I think the most important one to do is just before the power train warranty expires. You might spot something the dealership will be required to fix for you. If you trade your vehicles every 3-4 years, then don't bother unless you feel the need.

I like UOA's for trending. Every engine has a very recognizeable wear pattern. So spotting something out of the norm is pretty easy. I use Dyson Analysis (MRT Labs) mostly now. Measurements can be read up to 15 microns, which is a little better than some others at 10 microns. It does not measure Mn, which is a fuel additive, and it doesn't measure insolubles (just soot). It provides data for every other test that I need to make corrections or improve tune. Flash point and fuel dilution analysis is the best in the business.

Another tool I'm using is a filter cutter. I've also started using an open faced drain pan. The residue at the bottom after you pour the oil into a transport container can reveal large chunks of metal debris. Fortunately, my Toyota and Honda engines never reveal any large chunks in the filter or drain pan. But my daughter's 2008 Avalanche and a friend's 2000 Suzuki Grand Vitara throw some large chunks that concern me.

Bror Jace

Spitfire S's post had a lot of wisdom in it ... but BirdShot made a good point about the presence of both lead and copper to represent main bearing wear. Copper must also be coming from another source in these engines as my UOA had some copper (very slightly elevated at "8") but zero (0) lead.

Tin was also zero (0) suggesting it is not a bronze component (bushing, valve guide, etc ...).

zeroptzero

Alot of people talk about oil coolers being a source of copper, but I can't say that Honda oil coolers have any copper component to them, they might, but I don't know for sure.

BirdShot

Like I say, I'm not sure if Honda uses Copper tubing in S2000 oil coolers (some have aluminum) but if there is copper tubing then the leaching effect would be a very likely source, especially to see dramatically higher copper over lead/tin values. A little searching shows there are plenty of copper/aluminum coolers available for other Honda's, but I can't find one specific to the S2000. It happens all the time with perfectly healthy engines and can be seen during break-in periods and many times after lube mixing (switching from one product to another). Who knows, maybe the extreme heat and then cool down of an autocross run could cause it.

It's frustrating really, engines that have any kind of copper tubing make it tougher to find signs of bearing wear. Its a similar with aviation engines or others that use leaded fuel. HUGE amounts of lead along with copper show up in the engine oil under normal conditions making it almost impossible to detect bearing failure.

INDYMAC

I suspect that the negligible Cu readings we see on our UOA's are from corrosion and or leaching from the sulphur quantity or type in our fuels and engine oils, and not bearing wear in most cases. ASTM D-130 testing is supposed to be used for gasoline fuels, additives, and engine oils to ensure products available to customers have a minimum 1b rating. But oversight is poor in the industry, so who knows what we really get. Ethanol blended fuels can also have a corrosive effect, but is probably more related to Fe.

Here is a quick blurb about ASTM D-130:

"ASTM D-130 ASTM D-4048 FTM-5309 "Detection of Copper Corrosion from Petroleum Products by the Copper Strip Tarnish Test"
A variety of hydrocarbon products including oils, hydraulic fluids, fuel, solvents, etc., can be tested for corrosivity to copper by use of this test. It is limited to products with Ried Vapor pressure no greater than 18 psi (124 kPa). A polished copper strip is immersed in the fluid and heated for a specified time and temperature after which the corrosion is rated by visual comparison to the ASTM Copper Strip Corrosion Standards. The most typical test run is for 24 hours @ 100°C. However, time and temperature can vary according to product type and specification. Results are reported as a number followed by a letter according to the following scheme:
1 slight tarnish
a light orange, almost the same as a freshly polished strip
b dark orange
2 moderate tarnish
a claret red
b lavender
c multi colored with lavender blue or silver, or both, overlaid on claret red
d silvery
e brassy or gold
3 dark tarnish
a magenta overcast on brassy strip
b multi colored with red and green showing (peacock), but no gray
4 corrosion
a transparent black, dark gray or brown with peacock green barley showing
b graphite or lusterless black
c glossy or jet black
(The ASTM Copper Strip Corrosion Standard is a color reproduction of strips which have the above description.)"

BirdShot

I agree in many cases it is probably not bearing wear and ASTM D-130 brings up another source possibility of the copper. I cant speak for how much Cu may or may not be in the gasoline we use but as for the oil I can tell you from experience that even trace amounts(3 PPM or less) are very rare in new lube samples. I'm talking about all the major engine oils both for gasoline and diesel.

This topic has me wanting to tear down my perfectly sound F20 to look for any other sources of copper Really we do need to find out if there is indeed another possible source. The leaching effect is almost a form of corrosion, but on a molecular level. It all has to do with ZDDP and heat. The ZDDP in your additive pack coats everything it comes in contact with, including copper. This thin protective layer can remain there for a long time as long as there is no friction against it. If you suddenly introduce a chemical change such as lube mixing, this layer can be wiped away taking with it tiny traces of Cu. Heat seams to be the catylst...high revving engines and enthusiastic drivers can certainly result in some high temps. As has been mentioned in this thread, lube mixing can happen and you won't even know: the additive package formulation can change from time to time even though you think you are pouring in the same Mobil 1 (or Amsoil or whatever).

I dug up a failed crankshaft bearing from work. This one is from a diesel engine but is still largely representative of modern crank bearings the world over. I really need a new camera so my photo is not the best. This particular one is "wiped" or failing/failed. The soft overlay material that the crank rides on is made up of mostly lead and a smaller amount of tin. The intermediate layer is where you will find the copper and after that you would be into the steel backing plate.



With this one you can see that significant wear has occurred and that large amounts of overlay have worn off revealing the intermediate copper layer. I guarantee that if this bearing was still in use and you took a sample from it's engine, you would see high amounts of copper but even higher amounts of lead and tin.