zeroptzero

despite the k20 reference the copper and lead are still elevated based on multitude of S2000 UOA's we've seen posted, I would say those two elements are higher than the correct universal averages for an S2000 motor that we've seen. Still it is slightly elevated and in no way indicates premature wear of the bearings, if it starts to get up over 50 pppm's then I'd be more concerned. The next UOA will be very helpful if you can see a trend developing, upwards, downwards, or level. It looks like you are getting good filtration out of the air filter, silicon numbers are good, I've seen K&N filters go both ways in terms of filtration, this one seems to be okay. I still like the oem air filter personally, but to each their own. Thanks for posting this data, every bit helps, keep us posted on the next run.

Bror Jace

I got my results from Blackstone today for a run using Pennzoil High Mileage 10W-30. A high-quality GIF image of the report can be found here:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...ne_10-3-11.gif

The values are as follows:

Al 6
Chr 0
Fe 7
Cu 8
Pb 0
Tin 0
Mo 198
Nic 1
Mang 3
Silvr 0
Tita 0
Pot 4
Bor 61
Silicon 10
Sod 5
Cal 2253
Mag 9
Phos 693
Zn 685
Bar 0

Sus viscosity @ 210F 54.5
cSt Viscosity @ 100C 8.63
Flash (F) 375
Fuel: Trace
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insolubles 0.3%
TBN 3.8

Oil was in use almost 14 months. I assume there is a fair amount of fuel dilution as the car sees frequent short-trips. My commute is only about 12-15 mins. I think this accounts for the thinning. However, it sees the 8,000 RPM red line at least once almost every time I take it out.

While not every value is stellar, I gotta love that lead of 0. laugh

This was the first oil change since I bought the car. Previous owners most likely change the engine oil regularly ... but never touched the tranny or diff so they weren't obsessive about maintenance. Pennzoil Platinum 10W-30 went into the car after the drain.

BirdShot

Just read this thread for the first time...

Keep in mind there are other sources of copper in engines. Usually when you have a bearing issue developing you will see higher lead values than copper (lead is used as an overlay). In your case you could have some minor bearing wear along with some valve train wear.

Doesn't look too bad to me, considering some autocross, enthusiastic driving and short commutes.

duffsr

Thanks for posting up your UOA! It looks like you had really great wear considering your duration in terms of time, mileage, and driving schedule/style.

Thanks for the input! I'm not overly concerned, but i think the UOA will be a useful tool in ensuring the health of the motor. I refilled with M1 10w-30 having not seen the UOA. With the UOA I've altered my driving style, trying for minimum 5 mile trips, waiting ~10 minutes running before redline or WOT, and going to a 6 month interval. I'm thinking about German Castrol 0w-30 for the next fill, as I like what i've seen about it's HTHS, cold startup protection, and additive pack.

Thanks again for all the contributions to this thread, and I will post up the next UOA results when they get them.

SpitfireS

Limit "engines" to F20/F22's.
IMO there is no other source than main bearings.
The cams run in aluminum, steel timing chain, timing idler gear runs in aluminum too.


AFAIK the consensus over on Bitog is that it is not.
A typical UOA will only show the very small bits of wear, and not the big(ger) parts.
And the bigger parts matter.
The real big parts are in the filter, btw.

IMO UOA's are a usefull tool to show the condition of the oil, like TBN, shear and fuel dilution.
IOW: how long can I run my oil in the way that I'm using it.
It may show your air filter is dirty.

The only true engine health thing is traces of elements used in coolant.
It may indicate issues like headgasket (possible) or a porous block (rare)

A single shot UOA will tell you nothing about your engine (except coolant)
To get any engine status from UOA's you need at least a VOA of your oil and you need to stick to that same oil for a long time = create a series of UOA's.
This by itself is a problem because oils and additive packs change all the time.

duffsr

My thinking writing that was subsequent UOAs will hopefully trend my usage, intervals and oil mfg/viscosity to giving normal wear levels and getting the most out of the ~4k mi a year the S gets. It is a lot of variables, but I know after the first UOA that the CU wear was excessive (hopefully there were no bearing chunks in the filter). Given that things can go wrong almost any time, and that the UOA alone won't appreciably influence the life of the motor. If nothing else it's interesting read, and i appreciate the feedback and information you and others have contributed here.

Thanks
Reid

JackS

Do as you like but IMO, in a lightly driven auto, doing multiple UOA's is a waste of time and money. Any name brand oil reg/syn changed 3-4 times a year is probably already overkill. Spend your money on mods that will absolutly have an effect on performance and/ or appearence. If you feel you must, have a UOA done once a year.

duffsr

The point of doing a couple more UOA is to prevent wasting time and money in the form of unnecessary oil changes. I drive pretty severe operating conditions, short distances, enthusiastically, with low annual mileage. I searched and couldn't find much good information on similarly driven S2000s, so I wanted to see how a ~1 year/3,400 hard miles would look on M1 10w-30. The oil had sheared down to 5w-20, and there was irregular copper in the oil. YMMV.

Now i'm trying a 6-month interval, with some changes to my driving habits. If the wear and viscosity look better I will stick to that interval (or extend) and UOA again if the car see's frequent track days. I'm hardly doing oil changes every month for the heck of it, I want to get the proper interval and oil for my usage and enjoy the car.

As for mods I've got an OEM front lip and Coastal Metals splitter which has both (aesthetic) form and function (scrape protection). I will be getting some 225/255 star specs when I need tires and the next mod is hopefully a Hard Dog roll bar. For me personally, the car doesn't need anything else.

Leviisbigred

my recommendation is dont use Mobil 1 ... Mobil 1 is junk.. even tho its "says full syn" its not.. go with Amsoil or redline.. look it up. unless you get the $$$ Mobil 1 the racing one, its junk

BirdShot

Now I am not familiar with the F20/F22's specifically (still new to S2000's) as far as where every metal/alloy would be coming from so I cant speak from authority here. But, if there is any copper tubing used (fuel lines/lube cooler) yet another thing that can happen is a "leaching" effect, a chemical reaction that can occur from different additives reacting along with heating and cooling of parts. This can show up on a wear metals spectroscopy report as much as 300-600 or more PPM of Cu. Sounds terrible right? Check it out using Analytical Ferrography (microscope) and you will not even be able to see it, although you will still see all the Iron, Lead, dirt, etc that may normally be present. This happens in the healthiest of engines and is not considered a wear condition. Just something to consider, but again, I am not familiar with just how much copper is in our S2000's and seeing copper may well be from bearings. But TYPICALLY with bearings it is higher (or equal) lead than the copper, or lead and tin with some copper. "Toasted" bearings or ones on their way out might show higher copper than lead/tin as you have worn thru the overlay. Not trying to scare the OP!

It is true you don't see the bigger wear particles with standard wear metals testing (for that you need Ferrography, Filter debris analysis and other expensive options) but the up to 10 microns you do see will usually be representative of any wear conditions or wear build-up that are present. On the flip side, I have HAVE had reports that show signs of cylinder region (rings/liners) wear with no direct cause in a standard UOA test package. Then you look at it under a microscope and you can see large chunks of dirt and abrasives that clearly are causing the wear. (Keep your K&N's oiled!!)

I agree that UOA trending is that way to go to really get an idea of what is going on in your engine but a single shot UOA can tell you a lot. Besides coolant leaks of course you can have fuel dilution issues that result in thinning of the oil and "washing-out" of the cylinder walls. When I got involved in this industry I sampled my track car for the first time and found 3.9% fuel dilution that was causing piston, ring and liner wear. I had no idea this was going on otherwise. A little searching revealed that my distributor cap, which was replaced two years prior, was actually worn out and therefore was creating a weak spark. Replaced it, put new fluid in, did some track/autocross and enjoyed the 10-15 hp I had not realized I had lost. A new sample was taken and convinced me this was the issue; Fuel dilution was a trace amount, VIS was back to the correct range and wear was substantially less, all this on even more miles.

Trending is best to find the condition of the oil itself and to find out just how long you can safely go between changes, assuming no contamination or wear conditions. Your TBN and Oxidation/Nitration values will give you a good idea of how much useful life the additive pack has left in it. Throw in a TAN test if you really want to get fanatical about it.

If you sample via the dipstick you never have to change your oil until you know you NEED to