xviper

Your engine will not run unless the ECU gets a MAP signal, so NO!

RED MX5

Correct!

XViper, this is off-topic, but since you're running FI, you probably know more about this than most. There was a design flaw in the early motors, a combination of head and plug design, plus plug torque, that allowed the plugs to loosen (under some conditions which are as yet unclear). Changing the plug design and torque spec now looks like a patch rather than a fix, since we've now see at least one car throw a plug after the TSB was performed. FI is apt to aggravate any and all design weaknesses (as I'm sure you realized before you started your project), so you probably know as much or more about the plug issues as anyone. Most head designs don't have this problem, so it is a flaw in the head design, but what exactly causes the plugs to loosen? Are there too few threads in the head? I'm seriously considering dumping the car before it chunks a plug or burns up #4 because Honda is too cheap to replace the oil jets on US cars. Sky's problem tells me that the new plugs and extra torque may not solve the issue, but rather just make it a little less likely, and I didn't buy a Honda to drive a handgrenade motor. As one who's pushed the engine way beyond it's intended output, what's your take on the plug issue?

Thanks,

RED MX5

xviper

RED, I've addressed many of your questions in the "sky" thread so I'll only deal with those that haven't been discussed yet.
I have had the S/C on my daily driver for over a year now. I check the plugs regularly, not just for tightness but for condition so I can keep on top of how my engine is doing. The plugs (both the recall ones and my NGK copper ones) have remained intact with no loss of torque.
I don't believe we have a design flaw (in the head) "in the early engines" as the design has not changed. I am convinced that the plug recall is not just a "patch" but is a fix. I believe what we have here, is an engine that revs extremely high and I know for a fact that it vibrates more than most engines. I know this because mounting a blower on the front of the engine causes a change in the harmonics of those vibrations and I can now feel it through the stick when I could not before. The stock engine has been dampened for vibration extremely well by Honda, however, this doesn't mean that the engine itself doesn't feel its own vibration. It's just that they are dampened for us. Given the high rpm, high compression, the vibration, it is no surprise to me that the original stock plug and torque were inadequate. We cannot relate other engines to this one as this one is simply too unique and different insofar as those points I've already mentioned. I do not consider the head design as being flawed, just that the wrong plug and torque was chosen in the original instance.
As I've already talked about in other threads, getting the spark plug recall done is by no means any assurance that the owner's problem are gone. I have personally checked several S2000s after this recall and on each one of them, I discovered incompetency at the hands of the tech who did the recall work. On all cars, all 4 plugs were torqued using 4 different torques. It's as if the tech never heard of a torque wrench. These torques ranged from the old 13# to as high as 40 ft/lbs!!!!! The efficacy of the car seems to be dependent upon the quality of the weakest link and these case, the weakest link was the local Honda tech. This could still have been "sky's" problem although we will never know as the tech in that case never disclosed what the plug torques were when the diagnostics took place.
As owners of an extreme high strung powertrain, we have a certain responsibility to safeguard our own investment. Myself, I check many of the critical aspects of my car on a frequent and regular basis to ensure that nothing has changed and to keep on top of anything that has changed. Although it is still a Honda, it is a "special" Honda that requires the owner to have a bit more "hands on" than any other car out there. (Have you ever owned a Corvette? You turn your back on one of these and you are in big trouble. You cannot rely upon the scheduled maintenance to keep up with the stuff that comes loose on one of those.)
Whether or not you have lost confidence in your car is a matter of personal outlook. If you drive your car hard all the time, I think you need to dedicate more attention to it (far more than what the Honda schedule dictates), especially if you drive it hard a lot of the time. That having been said, noone should keep a car that he/she doesn't feel comfortable with for whatever reason.

RED MX5

Thanks XViper,

That's both what I wanted to know, and what I needed to hear. I really don't want to hijack this thread, but I want to pick your brain a little more.

I've followed your posts because I'm all too aware of the "weakest link" problem we run into when we start making major changes to our cars and motors, and you've obviously pushed the F20C envelope quite a bit. It's been 25 years (man am I getting old) since we built the 9,000 RPM Fiat motors, and I really thought Honda would have the technology down to the point where typical consumers could enjoy the S2000 without all the "hot-rod hassles." I actually enjoyed constantly watching the old Fiat motors for problems (though they never had any problems), and in reality I don't have any problem with doing the same thing with the S2000. One of the reasons I choose the car over a Super 7 was that I thought it would take less wrench time, but that certainly wasn't the only factor, and it only bugs me because I now feel a little like I'm working with an unknown, like a motor I've hopped up myself. Does that make sense?

You make a very good point concerning vibration. There is more involved here than just the engine speed; the stroke is much longer than an X-1/9 motor, the block materials are different, and so on. As you note, you can feel the vibration through the shifter; this is true even with the stock motor.

All I really need to do is figure out what it's going to take to avoid problems. From what you say, I've got it mostly licked already, because I do most of my own maintenance. I'm still checking tire pressures before every drive, and checking the oil level early-on in every drive, and now I'm wondering how often I need to check the plug torque (and what else might be vibrating loose). I use to "read" the plugs (and check the compression) on the Fiat motors every weekend, and that might not be a bad idea with this motor. Once I am comfortable that I can keep the car alive I'll feel better, and I need to keep in mind that most of the cars that are having problems are being maintained by typical dealership "mechanics."

How often do you check your plugs? What else to you check on a regular basis? (Other than fluid levels and condition.) Should I be treating my S2000 like a club racer? (That's not actually a problem, but I need to know, because I thought it was a fake. )

You're probably posted all the info in various places on the forum(s), but it would be nice to have a summary of your "checks and maintenance procedures" all in one place.

Thanks XV,

RED


[QUOTE]Originally posted by xviper
RED, I've addressed many of your questions in the "sky" thread so I'll only deal with those that haven't been discussed yet.
I have had the S/C on my daily driver for over a year now.

xviper

RED, you're right, it's not fair to hijack this thread, so go here to continue if you so desire:
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.p...threadid=201126