Why is the S2000 a better car than the 350z
02-06-2008, 09:43 AM
#71
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Anyone compare the Nismo edition versus their S2000 ? I'm not so keen on the boy racer body kit, despite its function, but I appreciate what it is supposed to represent. It also seems to be a better effort than the S2K CR edition.
The rumor is a slightly smaller Z coming soon. That should make it even more attractive to sports car guys.
The rumor is a slightly smaller Z coming soon. That should make it even more attractive to sports car guys.
02-06-2008, 04:04 PM
#72
I can't find a lot to disagree with here. I had my '03 S for four years and I enjoyed the hell out of it. I had driven a few Z cars and liked them as well. The HR engine in the '07 was a big improvement and I decided it was time for a change. I would have loved to keep the S but I couldn't do it financially. I'm having a blast with the Z and I have no regrets, except, as I said, I would have liked having both. The S will always be a great and unique car. It sure would have been good if Honda had done some significent upgrading over the years. I might well have bought another one.
02-06-2008, 04:21 PM
#73
[QUOTE=RED MX5,Feb 5 2008, 01:42 PM]
Thanks ZDan.
Thanks ZDan.
02-06-2008, 05:22 PM
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[QUOTE=ZDan,Feb 6 2008, 08:21 PM]
Here's the one that's impressed me the most:
The 350Z was a HUGE disappointment for me, particularly with the promise of a return to 240Z ideals
Here's the one that's impressed me the most:
The 350Z was a HUGE disappointment for me, particularly with the promise of a return to 240Z ideals
02-07-2008, 05:52 AM
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This artical from 350X forums is along the lines that Red MX was referencing - a bit long, but very interesting because it references the s2k and 350Z specifically.
Horsepower, Torque, and Gearing...and how they relate to one another.
An Introduction:
Here are some basic definitions. The purpose of this article is to help understand their implications better, but the fundamentals are these:
Torque is a measure of force. Force is what causes the car to accelerate, so more torque will cause faster acceleration.
Work is a force over a distance. Work only happens when your car moves, and it is a measure of the force applied over the distance the car moved.
Power is work done over a certain amount of time. Doing the same amount of work (moving a car 1/4 mile, for example) in less time requires more power. Since power requires work which requires force, an engines horsepower rating depends on its torque.
Horsepower = ( torque x RPM ) / 5252 (Horsepower is only a unit of measuring power, much like ft-lbs is a unit of measuring torque.)
There's an old question that is rarely convincingly answered- which is more important: torque or horsepower? Looking at that equation, one can't be made without the other. So are they the same thing? Should one tune their engine to make more torque or more horsepower?
The answer depends on a few more things, the most important of which is clearly gearing. Gearing is a magical thing, as it can either multiply or divide an engine's torque before it gets to the wheels of the car. With gearing, the way work is created can be changed. For example, "short" gearing will cause the wheels to spin slower but with more force spinning them. This makes a car accelerate faster due to the increased force, but limits its top speed because the engine cannot spin fast enough. This is why first gear on a car typically feels very strong, but is only usable to 30mph. On the other hand, a "tall" gear will cause the wheels to spin faster, but with less force spinning them. Since faster rolling wheels make a car move faster, the car has a higher top speed, but with less force pushing the car forward, acceleration will not be as good. Vehicles usually reach top speed when either the engine begins spinning too fast or the engine cannot make enough power to overcome the resistance caused from air drag.
A Simple Example:
Recall what it's like to ride in a 10-speed bicycle. In the first gears, it's really easy to pedal uphill. Every rotation of the pedals is a single rotation of the bike's wheel, so the amount of force (torque) at the wheels is roughly equal to that at the pedals. That makes uphill treks almost as easy as walking! However, try staying in this gear and going fast, and you'll find yourself not being able to pedal fast enough. The solution? Switch to a higher gear. In a high gear, each rotation of the pedals is equal to three rotations of the wheel- the bike moves three times as far with just one rotation of the pedals! However, going uphill in such a gear is very difficult- in fact, three times so. Why? The torque you are making to the pedals is divided by three at the wheel. Either way, you're doing the same amount of work- either by applying a great amount of force over a short distance or a small amount of force over a long distance.
Now, most cars have 5 speed transmissions, meaning there are 5 different gears (besides reverse) that can be chosen for different methods of accomplishing work. 1st gear is for acceleration, and 5th gear is for high speeds. 1st gear will create more torque at the wheels than 2nd gear, 2nd gear will create more torque to the wheels than 3rd gear, and so on. However, low gears are not available after a given speeds- usually about 30mph for 1st, 60mph for 2nd, and so on. This is also why it a car will achieve maximum acceleration by holding a gear as long as possible, despite torque being slightly reduced at higher RPMs.
A Real Example:
Let's look at two very, very different engines in cars that compete with one another. These are actual dyno charts from a 2004 Honda S2000 and a 2003 Nissan 350Z. The Nissan has more than 50% more engine displacement and almost 50% more torque, and has a general reputation of being a bohemoth when it comes to torque and power. The S2000, on the other hand, has a small engine that revs high- it's known to be quirky and lack torque at low RPMs.
The 350Z has a shorter, higher torque curve. The S2000 has a longer, lower torque curve. For the purposes of this article, we are going to assume the 350Z revs to 6000rpm (it can actually be over-revved to 7000), and the S2000 is limited to 8000rpm. This is not a comparison of the 350Z and S2000, but rather a comparison of two very different drivetrain designs.
(See Image 1 and 2 below)
We see both cars make about the same peak horsepower, but the 350Z engine makes (on average) 60-70 ft-lbs more torque. That's 40% more torque in some places! Thus, if the gearing (and mass) of the vehicles was identical, the 350Z would accelerate 40% faster than the S2000. That's the difference between a 350Z and a Hyndai Elantra! Obviously we know this wouldn't happen in real life. The 350Z would have to shift sooner, and shifting to the taller gear would reduce the effective force on the wheels. Conversely, the S2000 would be able to stay in a lower gear for 25% longer due to its 2000 extra usable RPMs. It would maintain its low-gear acceleration for a longer time. But why would Honda release a car geared to be slow and require little shifting? They wouldn't! Thus we see how tuning is performed with gear selection.
Gearing:
Gearing determines the amount of torque that goes to the wheels.
If both vehicles are geared so that each gear peaks at the same vehicle speed, the lower-displacement engine's torque effectively gets multiplied by the 25% gained from shorter gearing. 25% is a huge gain- effectively making the 160ft-lb engine feel like a 200ft-lb engine.
(See Image 3 below)
We see that the large-displacement engine still exherts more force on the car for the majority of the time, but the difference has been slimmed considerably. Even more amazing, just before shifting the small-displacement engine actually produces more torque at the wheels! Now you see the effect that gearing has on the drivetrain design. Since high horsepower allows for aggressive gearing, horsepower is more important than torque. Engine torque is of little consequence to wheel torque, so long as it is available throughout the entire rev range.
That's where the driver comes into play- knowing where torque is made. A squeemish driver may not like to rev his S2000, and thus will feel it to be slow. Look again at the graph above- the 350Z engine still has a nice torque advantage at lower RPMs despite the deficit at higher RPMs. This is important because an engine must go through its lower RPMs to get to its higher RPMs! However, once in those higher RPMs, choosing high shift points (as in drag racing) will keep the engine there. While the small-displacement engine may gaining ground just before its shift, it will have taken longer to get to that point. The 350Z will already be ahead.
Another advantage of the 350Z is that it is less critical to stay in a low gear for good acceleration, since it makes more torque lower in its rev range anyway. This increased engine torque can negate the drop in wheel torque from switching gears- basically it can be driven at a much quieter, smoother RPM on the highway. Such an engine is often considered "flexible" or "torquey" because it has similar acceleration regardless of what gear the car is in. Notice that a "torquey" motor does not necessarily have a flat torque curve- it only means that it peaks early in the rev range.
Power-to-Weight Ratio:
The 350Z's high-displacement engine seems thus far like the faster, more versatile car in this scenario. However, there is one more very important factor that was not considered: weight. The 350Z weighs about 400lbs more than the S2000. Smaller engines are quote often very lighter (Some GM pushrod engines are also amazingly lightweight). Thus, for every pound of thrust, the 350Z has to pull 13% more weight. At low speeds, power-to-weight ratio is key. We can normalize the graph to account for this:
(See image 4 below)
At higher speeds, drag becomes the cheif source of resistance, making power-to-drag ratio most important. Analysis at this point depends largely on the car- drag becomes a limiting factor much more quickly on a truck than does a car. Some cars have TOO high a power-to-weight ratio, and cannot use all the power their car makes in 1st or even 2nd gear without producing wheelspin. Knowing these limitations is key to tuning and driving your car.
And that's what it all comes down to- knowing how you like to drive, and buying a car that suits your style. Figure out what your goals should be for tuning- every design is at least some of a compromise, after all. What happens when a car is made with a high-torque and high-revving engine, a 6-speed transmission, and light weight? You get Ferrari :-)
Horsepower, Torque, and Gearing...and how they relate to one another.
An Introduction:
Here are some basic definitions. The purpose of this article is to help understand their implications better, but the fundamentals are these:
Torque is a measure of force. Force is what causes the car to accelerate, so more torque will cause faster acceleration.
Work is a force over a distance. Work only happens when your car moves, and it is a measure of the force applied over the distance the car moved.
Power is work done over a certain amount of time. Doing the same amount of work (moving a car 1/4 mile, for example) in less time requires more power. Since power requires work which requires force, an engines horsepower rating depends on its torque.
Horsepower = ( torque x RPM ) / 5252 (Horsepower is only a unit of measuring power, much like ft-lbs is a unit of measuring torque.)
There's an old question that is rarely convincingly answered- which is more important: torque or horsepower? Looking at that equation, one can't be made without the other. So are they the same thing? Should one tune their engine to make more torque or more horsepower?
The answer depends on a few more things, the most important of which is clearly gearing. Gearing is a magical thing, as it can either multiply or divide an engine's torque before it gets to the wheels of the car. With gearing, the way work is created can be changed. For example, "short" gearing will cause the wheels to spin slower but with more force spinning them. This makes a car accelerate faster due to the increased force, but limits its top speed because the engine cannot spin fast enough. This is why first gear on a car typically feels very strong, but is only usable to 30mph. On the other hand, a "tall" gear will cause the wheels to spin faster, but with less force spinning them. Since faster rolling wheels make a car move faster, the car has a higher top speed, but with less force pushing the car forward, acceleration will not be as good. Vehicles usually reach top speed when either the engine begins spinning too fast or the engine cannot make enough power to overcome the resistance caused from air drag.
A Simple Example:
Recall what it's like to ride in a 10-speed bicycle. In the first gears, it's really easy to pedal uphill. Every rotation of the pedals is a single rotation of the bike's wheel, so the amount of force (torque) at the wheels is roughly equal to that at the pedals. That makes uphill treks almost as easy as walking! However, try staying in this gear and going fast, and you'll find yourself not being able to pedal fast enough. The solution? Switch to a higher gear. In a high gear, each rotation of the pedals is equal to three rotations of the wheel- the bike moves three times as far with just one rotation of the pedals! However, going uphill in such a gear is very difficult- in fact, three times so. Why? The torque you are making to the pedals is divided by three at the wheel. Either way, you're doing the same amount of work- either by applying a great amount of force over a short distance or a small amount of force over a long distance.
Now, most cars have 5 speed transmissions, meaning there are 5 different gears (besides reverse) that can be chosen for different methods of accomplishing work. 1st gear is for acceleration, and 5th gear is for high speeds. 1st gear will create more torque at the wheels than 2nd gear, 2nd gear will create more torque to the wheels than 3rd gear, and so on. However, low gears are not available after a given speeds- usually about 30mph for 1st, 60mph for 2nd, and so on. This is also why it a car will achieve maximum acceleration by holding a gear as long as possible, despite torque being slightly reduced at higher RPMs.
A Real Example:
Let's look at two very, very different engines in cars that compete with one another. These are actual dyno charts from a 2004 Honda S2000 and a 2003 Nissan 350Z. The Nissan has more than 50% more engine displacement and almost 50% more torque, and has a general reputation of being a bohemoth when it comes to torque and power. The S2000, on the other hand, has a small engine that revs high- it's known to be quirky and lack torque at low RPMs.
The 350Z has a shorter, higher torque curve. The S2000 has a longer, lower torque curve. For the purposes of this article, we are going to assume the 350Z revs to 6000rpm (it can actually be over-revved to 7000), and the S2000 is limited to 8000rpm. This is not a comparison of the 350Z and S2000, but rather a comparison of two very different drivetrain designs.
(See Image 1 and 2 below)
We see both cars make about the same peak horsepower, but the 350Z engine makes (on average) 60-70 ft-lbs more torque. That's 40% more torque in some places! Thus, if the gearing (and mass) of the vehicles was identical, the 350Z would accelerate 40% faster than the S2000. That's the difference between a 350Z and a Hyndai Elantra! Obviously we know this wouldn't happen in real life. The 350Z would have to shift sooner, and shifting to the taller gear would reduce the effective force on the wheels. Conversely, the S2000 would be able to stay in a lower gear for 25% longer due to its 2000 extra usable RPMs. It would maintain its low-gear acceleration for a longer time. But why would Honda release a car geared to be slow and require little shifting? They wouldn't! Thus we see how tuning is performed with gear selection.
Gearing:
Gearing determines the amount of torque that goes to the wheels.
If both vehicles are geared so that each gear peaks at the same vehicle speed, the lower-displacement engine's torque effectively gets multiplied by the 25% gained from shorter gearing. 25% is a huge gain- effectively making the 160ft-lb engine feel like a 200ft-lb engine.
(See Image 3 below)
We see that the large-displacement engine still exherts more force on the car for the majority of the time, but the difference has been slimmed considerably. Even more amazing, just before shifting the small-displacement engine actually produces more torque at the wheels! Now you see the effect that gearing has on the drivetrain design. Since high horsepower allows for aggressive gearing, horsepower is more important than torque. Engine torque is of little consequence to wheel torque, so long as it is available throughout the entire rev range.
That's where the driver comes into play- knowing where torque is made. A squeemish driver may not like to rev his S2000, and thus will feel it to be slow. Look again at the graph above- the 350Z engine still has a nice torque advantage at lower RPMs despite the deficit at higher RPMs. This is important because an engine must go through its lower RPMs to get to its higher RPMs! However, once in those higher RPMs, choosing high shift points (as in drag racing) will keep the engine there. While the small-displacement engine may gaining ground just before its shift, it will have taken longer to get to that point. The 350Z will already be ahead.
Another advantage of the 350Z is that it is less critical to stay in a low gear for good acceleration, since it makes more torque lower in its rev range anyway. This increased engine torque can negate the drop in wheel torque from switching gears- basically it can be driven at a much quieter, smoother RPM on the highway. Such an engine is often considered "flexible" or "torquey" because it has similar acceleration regardless of what gear the car is in. Notice that a "torquey" motor does not necessarily have a flat torque curve- it only means that it peaks early in the rev range.
Power-to-Weight Ratio:
The 350Z's high-displacement engine seems thus far like the faster, more versatile car in this scenario. However, there is one more very important factor that was not considered: weight. The 350Z weighs about 400lbs more than the S2000. Smaller engines are quote often very lighter (Some GM pushrod engines are also amazingly lightweight). Thus, for every pound of thrust, the 350Z has to pull 13% more weight. At low speeds, power-to-weight ratio is key. We can normalize the graph to account for this:
(See image 4 below)
At higher speeds, drag becomes the cheif source of resistance, making power-to-drag ratio most important. Analysis at this point depends largely on the car- drag becomes a limiting factor much more quickly on a truck than does a car. Some cars have TOO high a power-to-weight ratio, and cannot use all the power their car makes in 1st or even 2nd gear without producing wheelspin. Knowing these limitations is key to tuning and driving your car.
And that's what it all comes down to- knowing how you like to drive, and buying a car that suits your style. Figure out what your goals should be for tuning- every design is at least some of a compromise, after all. What happens when a car is made with a high-torque and high-revving engine, a 6-speed transmission, and light weight? You get Ferrari :-)
02-07-2008, 06:35 AM
#77
Those curves are a bit off, they show the S2000 making 245hp and the 350Z only making 230. The early 350Z made 287hp/242rwhp, and the S2000 makes 240hp/200rwhp.
They also screwed up the weight. S2000 is 500 lb. lighter than the Z, not 400.
Bottom line: Power/weight is important. S2k and 287hp 350Z have similar power/weight, hence similar acceleration.
Torque and rpm are both useful inasmuch as they allow you to make POWER, which is the important parameter as it combines the two. However you make it, with big torque or big rpm, power = good
They also screwed up the weight. S2000 is 500 lb. lighter than the Z, not 400.
Bottom line: Power/weight is important. S2k and 287hp 350Z have similar power/weight, hence similar acceleration.
Torque and rpm are both useful inasmuch as they allow you to make POWER, which is the important parameter as it combines the two. However you make it, with big torque or big rpm, power = good
02-07-2008, 06:55 AM
#78
Originally Posted by imnotcreative72,Feb 4 2008, 05:22 PM
the S is more nimble stock but then again its not that hard to be nimble when you dont have much power to work with.
honestly tho...honda went overboard with the MSRP no options little comfort and room for 32k+..crazy you can get a touring Z (leather, bose, LSD, VDC) for around 29k
honestly tho...honda went overboard with the MSRP no options little comfort and room for 32k+..crazy you can get a touring Z (leather, bose, LSD, VDC) for around 29k
However, the S2000 isn't nimble because it has less power, that just doesn't make any sense. Lighter weight, much more centralized mass, weight distribution, quicker steering, suspension all play roles.
Regarding the MSRP, I think it's a bargain - more so than the 350Z. No other Honda shares S2000 components and the car was designed as a roadster from the ground up. Whereas the VQ engine is the bread and butter of Nissans. You have to consider R&D, engineering, manufacturing. If the S2000 was a bad bargain, selling the Z4 and Boxster would be committing highway robbery, especially after you option them out with items you would think should come standard.
02-07-2008, 08:44 AM
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I dunno... maybe nissan has improved their product, but after putting O2 sensor after another and knock sensors and EGR valves in them in the shop I worked in, it kinda steered me away.
J
J
02-07-2008, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by imnotcreative72,Feb 4 2008, 02:22 PM
honestly tho...honda went overboard with the MSRP no options little comfort and room for 32k+..crazy you can get a touring Z (leather, bose, LSD, VDC) for around 29k
I spent 4 months looking for a Z (went from looking at 03s, to 05s, to finally new). When I went to dealerships for new, there was no one who would give a touring model for 29k.