papadoc

One of the most powerful naturally aspirated 4-bangers on the planet. The new Vette, with twice as much displacement, makes less than twice the hp. And is a lot heavier. Funny how on the same forum we have threads about how easy it is to lift the tail on this car, AND a thread about how there's not enough power. You want pure power? Buy a Mustang GT. You want a pure driver's sports car--stick with your S.

RED MX5

Good discussion.

OK, but what you said was, "is it possible this car to handle turns just like before? I don't think so." You seemed to be talking about the car and the way it handled, rather than "average drivers," and I just wanted to make it clear that increasing the cars power doesn't degrade the cars handling. Heck, with the centrifigual blowers you don't even feel the boost until 4-4.5k at WOT, so the car actually drives pretty much like stock until you start to drive it hard. In corners with the engine in VTEC the car is certainly more responsive to throttle inputs, but it's not any more or less tail happy. Does that make sense?

Anyone who can drive the car hard when it's stock can drive it hard with FI, but stock or boosted, the S2000 is not as forgiving as most other cars, and it points out our mistakes quickly.

As for "average drivers," I'd rather not discuss it, because they have me outnumbered. Suffice to say that the S2000 is probably not the best choice for a soccer mom who is going to be on the phone and putting on makup while driving through traffic (possibly in VTEC ).

energetic

I must admit that you made me smile with your post. You make a good point.

By the way, how long you have your S FIed?

trinis2001

I do think adding power should change the car's handling. Let talk about braking for instance, or cornering at higher speeds because of more power etc. I can't imagine a bone stock S (brakes/suspension) with about 40+whp through FI is going to handle as well as the non FI stocker.

Back to the Yugo example, add 100hp to a bone stock Yugo and is that car's handling safe still?

vishnus11

I'm surprised at the information on this thread - lots of random guesses and erroneous info, but no real educated guesses.

Reasons:
- Forced Induction is COMPLETELY OUT. Back during the development of the S2000, forced induction was briefly discussed and promptly rejected due to its poor in gear response when compared to a naturally aspirated motor. Turbo technology has come a long way as BMW's S54 has proved, but this motor was designed to be N/A and suddenly deciding to turbocharge after all the developmental work is complete is simply NOT an option

- The engine is already in a high state of tune. When it comes to bolt-ons, there's not much to be done that can increase the horsepower output whilst retaining driveability. Intakes seem to produce negligible horsepower and some designs have hydrolock issues. Header's don't appear to make any significant gains and may have adverse effects on emissions and noise. And none of the exhausts that even make power (i.e. 63 and 70mm singles) are acceptable for a daily driven vehicle. Thus that rules out any I/H/E modifications as a source of horsepower. Tuning has progressively been improved in the OEM cars, and the 06+ S2000s are especially well tuned from factory. Very little has been left on the table, and what little has been left has been done for reasons of erring on the side of safety.

- Emissions. The 06+ S2000s comply with LEV-II standards. Adding more HP via forced induction on an existing engine design that wasn't designed for it would likely be a backward step in this department

In short, its just like Uehera said - increasing horsepower may be possible, BUT increasing horsepower whilst maintaining driveability, reliability and emissions is not.

If Honda wants to increase the horsepower output of the S2000, they will likely resort to a clean sheet redesign of the engine. The F20C was a clean sheet design and Honda developed many new technologies such as roller rockers and such in order to achieve their targets. This was back in the late 90's. Over the last 10 years, I'm sure they've learnt even more, and this time around, they will resort to even newer technologies to squeeze out more hp whilst further maximizing efficiency.

RED MX5

I will have had the supercharger for two years this Christmas, so it's been on the car for a little over a year and a half.

Ima_Chillin

I think its perfect the wat it is? its reliable, fasst and i still get 29mpg! the people that want it faster and more hp are going to make it faster and get more hp with mods while giving up other things that some people may not want to give up (mpg or reliablity or noise)

oh and is there ever enough hp or tq?? NO!

RED MX5

Trinis, your thinking is logical, but either you are overlooking something, or using the term "handling" in an odd way. I'm not sure I can explain why to your satisfaction, but if you'll bear with me, I'll try. I think if we all agree on the meaning of the terms we're using we might actually all be in agreement.

A Yugo is a good example, and I know a little about the cars because they're so close the the Fiats we use to autocross. Let's start with a little perspective. The stock Yugo makes less than 1/3 the power of an S2000, so adding 100 HP to a Yugo would be like adding 300 HP to an S2000. So, to begin with, let's be a little more realistic. A CTSC/AC or VTSC/AC adds about 50% (or less) more power, and adding 50% to a Yugo would mean adding about 30 HP, not 100 HP.

Now Fiat engines can really scream, and Yugo's are in a very mild state of tune, so you can get 30 more horsepower NA, using parts from companies like Alquati and Abarth. The resulting engine is not going to weigh any more than the stock engine, and might even weigh a little less, so the only difference is going to be less low end torque and more high end power (assuming that you didn't mod anything else). Since the cars balance is unchanged, the cars handling will be unchaged. No part of the suspension has been changed, the tires are the same, the shocks and springs are the same, it's all the same, and it will handle exactly as it did before the power was increased. There is no way possible for this not to be the case, because nothing that can affect the cars handling has changed in any way.

What has changed is the amount of power the car makes, and the driver will never even see that change until he steps on the gas hard enough for long enough. Of course the car will have a higher top speed, and the brakes may not be up to the task of slowing the car from those higher speeds, but do you really think 30 HP is going to be enough to render the brakes ineffective? (Actually, on the Yugo the brakes are already ineffective, but the extra 5 MPH the 30 HP yields isn't going to make any noticable difference at all.)

Now lets look at an example that is a better fit to your thinking. The old Kawasaki 3-cylinder two stroke motorcycles were sometimes called "Flexi Fliers," becasue they had so much power that the rider could feel the frame and swing-arm flexing under full power acceleration. A good set of expansion chambers on the bike would boost the power enough for the bike to steer itself and become uncontrolable under WOT acceleration (unless you made other mods to help stabalize things).

Going to the extreme (like adding 100 WHP to a Yugo ) can produce some entertaining, but useless, results. My neighbor in Sunnymead (back in the 60's) had a Ford Anglia, that was 100% stock, except for the shortened driveshaft, automatic transmission, and 383 FireDome Hemi V-8. The stock tires on an Anglia have a contact patch that is probably all of 3" wide, and with all the extra mass and power, you could burn a brand new set of tires down to the cords in a single burnout, while actually traveling less than a tenth of a mile. If there has ever been a worse handling car I have been fortunate enough to have been spared the experience, but the little car WAS fun to play around with.

Anyway, sorry for all the verbage, but do you see what I'm trying to illustrate here? Some vehicles don't handle additional power well, while others take it in stride. The throttle is not an on/off switch, so you could add 100 WHP to your S2000, and never use it, and if you never use it, how's it going to change ANYTHING (other than the fact that you'll have more parts to wear out). The car will only *behave* differently (not *handle* differently) if you use the extra power, and then the only difference is that you'll be able to put more power to the rear tires IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO. If you go to an Evolution School, they will make you shift into second gear as soon as possible, and stay in second throughout your run. This will be the case whether you're driving a Yugo or a Vette. In an S2000 with a supercharger, the car makes less wheel torque than a stock S2000 does in first gear, so by your logic, the supercharged car should handle better in second gear than the stock car does in first (because it puts less thrust to the ground). Do you think changing gears changes the cars handling?
It doesn't. It gives the driver more power, so he *can* get into trouble more easliy, but it does not in any way change the way the car handles.

Now I'll speculate a little. I think what you guys are saying has merit, but I think you're saying it wrong. More power does not (usually) make a car easier to drive. It gives average drivers more to get into trouble with. The handling is the same, but the limits can be reached and exceeded more quickly, so it takes more finesse to drive the car, not becaues the handling has changed, but because it can produce greater torque to spin the tires, and can produce more speed in less space and time. People who can't handle the power of Yugo without getting into trouble, or people who can't handle the power of a stock S2000 without getting into trouble, would of course get into worse trouble, more quickly, with more power, but it's NOT because the power changes the cars handling. That's just WRONG, and it's not a matter of what I *think*. I've been modifying cars and bikes for over 30 years, so I'm talking about what I know from experience rather than merely what I happen to think might be the case.

But back to the crazy bone stock Yugo with an additional 100 WHP. The car would be no more or less safe than the person behind the wheel. The throttle is not an on/off switch, and the power would make no difference at all until the driver decided to use it, or misuse it. One of the CCR Skylines (the gray R32 GTR) was making 600 WHP, and the R33 GTR engine we're building now will be making 700 WHP or more. This is over twice the power of the stock engine, so naturally you need other mods, like tires, brakes, suspension, etc., to put all the extra power to the ground, but there is an old rule of thumb that is older than anyone here on S2kI. When it comes to boost, a 50% increase in power is conservative enough for almost any car to take the extra power in stride. My own experience has more than born this out.

So, think what you like, but if you think power changes handling, then you also think the car handles better in the higher gears (where less power gets to the tires) than it does in the lower gears, and in fact, that's the exact opposite of the truth. The car handles better in the lower gears, because the driver can put more power to the ground, and therefore has greater control. Whether you get the extra power from a downshift or a supercharger doesn't matter, the effect is going to be the same, and more power or lower gearing actually means more control for the driver rather than less.

Now, if one is a noob and a numbskull, then any amount of power might be too much, but neither the S2000 nor forced induction is appropriate for such people. Even a Yugo is too much for some, but that's not becaue Yugo's are overpowered.

One could ask why Honda worked with Comptech to develop the CTSC, if Honda though the car couldn't handle the power?

RED MX5

LOL, me too, but it's pretty normal here on S2kI. People love to speculate without any experience or facts to back up the speculation. It's actually pretty nice when people say "I think" and "I know" to help differentiate their beliefs from actual knowledge and/or experience. Makes for a much more civil discussion.

Even though I didn't quote them all, I agree with all your points.

TheDonEffect

Ech, if Honda really wanted to, they would've, but they don't, they'd rather spend time injecting sportiness into hum drum family sedans.
If I wanted a car with more power, I would've bought something else. Coudl care less if Honda upped the power on a newer model, why? Because that just devalues my car. Again, would you want to be a 2003 350Z owner now?