What snap oversteer?!
01-22-2002, 11:38 AM
#22
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Originally posted by Cedric Tomkinson
My previous car was an MR2, and I can vouch for the accuracy of this assessment. That 'mid engined car' has most of the weight over the back axle.
My previous car was an MR2, and I can vouch for the accuracy of this assessment. That 'mid engined car' has most of the weight over the back axle.
01-22-2002, 11:39 AM
#23
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Originally posted by Steve2K
I finally got her shirt off and reached around for the bra snap and darn if I'm not grabbing her breast on the other side!
I HATE snap oversteer!
I finally got her shirt off and reached around for the bra snap and darn if I'm not grabbing her breast on the other side!
I HATE snap oversteer!
01-22-2002, 01:09 PM
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Mike, I don't think anyone in this thread was trying to blame the car for anything... and the S2000 handles quite a bit better than a unicycle! But the fact of the matter is every car has shortcomings to one degree or another, and it's important to keep them in mind to help aviod potential problems. Hopefully, by knowing about the car's tendencies from reading about them, it will keep inexperienced drivers from pushing too hard and causing an accident. In the end, every one of us is responsible for our own actions - that's a fact we can't escape.
But the fact of the matter is every car has shortcomings to one degree or another, and it's important to keep them in mind to help aviod potential problems. Hopefully, by knowing about the car's tendencies from reading about them, it will keep inexperienced drivers from pushing too hard and causing an accident. In the end, every one of us is responsible for our own actions - that's a fact we can't escape.
01-22-2002, 04:40 PM
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Wow. The person who started this thread actually felt the Miata is harder to handle in an oversteer situation? No way, no how! I've seen plenty of raced Miatas and they are all easier to gather back up than the S2K.
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Have you driven an MX5 on the limit? I have, lots of times and it is very progressive and communicative car ... one of the best. Though I've still had the back go 'snap' and put me into a spin while I have not had that happen in the S2000. My point was that when the S2000 'let's go', then it's at least as progressive as an MX5 or an Elise ... I have been in both when they 'snap' oversteered.
Besides that I do experience oversteer fairly often in the S2000. S2000 is one of the better cars to oversteer (IMHO) as it's so benign when over the limit - as I said, go-cart comes to mind. Cars that have a tendency to 'snap' oversteer are not cars that you want to oversteer too often .... MR2 was a fine example - extremely high limits but you don't want the back to step out. That was in a way my question/point - oversteer and 'snap' oversteer are two different things to me. 'Snap' oversteer is something that you want to avoid at all times so cars that exhibit this trait are usually the ones that you don't want to oversteer at all ... S2000 does not seem like that to me. 'Snap' oversteer is something that is pretty viscious and not progressive - I have not experienced 'viscious' or 'non-progressive' oversteer myself in the S2000 .... I have had the back step out a few times when I did not expect it and it did give me a fright, but each time it was progressive and eazy to bring back - it actually surprised me how progressive it is when it lets go.
Last of all - I still have the original S02s and had S02s even on my MR2 and the reason I like them is because they have very progressive limit and stay progressive even when they let go. They do this better then any other tyres I've had before. The tyres not making noise, or warning before they let go is a very different thing from them 'snapping' when they do let go. I don't find them to 'snap' at all ... all very progressive - that's what I like about them. Feedback I get from scrub, suspension and the seat.
Wow. The person who started this thread actually felt the Miata is harder to handle in an oversteer situation? No way, no how! I've seen plenty of raced Miatas and they are all easier to gather back up than the S2K.
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Have you driven an MX5 on the limit? I have, lots of times and it is very progressive and communicative car ... one of the best. Though I've still had the back go 'snap' and put me into a spin while I have not had that happen in the S2000. My point was that when the S2000 'let's go', then it's at least as progressive as an MX5 or an Elise ... I have been in both when they 'snap' oversteered.
Besides that I do experience oversteer fairly often in the S2000. S2000 is one of the better cars to oversteer (IMHO) as it's so benign when over the limit - as I said, go-cart comes to mind. Cars that have a tendency to 'snap' oversteer are not cars that you want to oversteer too often .... MR2 was a fine example - extremely high limits but you don't want the back to step out. That was in a way my question/point - oversteer and 'snap' oversteer are two different things to me. 'Snap' oversteer is something that you want to avoid at all times so cars that exhibit this trait are usually the ones that you don't want to oversteer at all ... S2000 does not seem like that to me. 'Snap' oversteer is something that is pretty viscious and not progressive - I have not experienced 'viscious' or 'non-progressive' oversteer myself in the S2000 .... I have had the back step out a few times when I did not expect it and it did give me a fright, but each time it was progressive and eazy to bring back - it actually surprised me how progressive it is when it lets go.
Last of all - I still have the original S02s and had S02s even on my MR2 and the reason I like them is because they have very progressive limit and stay progressive even when they let go. They do this better then any other tyres I've had before. The tyres not making noise, or warning before they let go is a very different thing from them 'snapping' when they do let go. I don't find them to 'snap' at all ... all very progressive - that's what I like about them. Feedback I get from scrub, suspension and the seat.
01-22-2002, 05:15 PM
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Interesting to see the comments here re the MR2. David, the one and only time I have experienced snap oversteer is at Phillip Island flat tack through turn 8 at around 170km/h - exactly the same spot you lost your MR2.
As you know, turn 8 is the corner where there are more incidents than any other. Apparently there is a bump mid corner which is not discernible when you are driving the track, therefore I think bump steering is certainly a contributing factor.
In my case, I was able to maintain control, albeit with a lot of fishtailing, and continue without coming off the track. However, it was a highly unnerving experience and for the rest of the day I was taking turn 8 at 9/10ths, rather than 10/10ths.
As you know, turn 8 is the corner where there are more incidents than any other. Apparently there is a bump mid corner which is not discernible when you are driving the track, therefore I think bump steering is certainly a contributing factor.
In my case, I was able to maintain control, albeit with a lot of fishtailing, and continue without coming off the track. However, it was a highly unnerving experience and for the rest of the day I was taking turn 8 at 9/10ths, rather than 10/10ths.
01-22-2002, 05:58 PM
#29
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DavidM, you have a very well dialed in car then. Get your alignment checked for a baseline and make sure you keep that set up.
I used to autox a Miata and would have tried my hand at Nationals had I enough leave time from work to do so. The Miata is a wonderful handling car and I can count the number of times I spun on one hand and most of those spins were while I was learning the autox sport. My E36M3 was nearly as forgiving as the Miata and the number of times I spun it at an autox was zero. My test drive for my S2k was taking the salesman on a wild Saturday ride at the autox course which was set up and waiting for Sunday's event (that is an interesting story which includes test driving a Boxster and an RSX on the same course, but it's a story for another time.
) On the first run I took it very easy but quickly realized the Stook would spin nearly as hard and as fast as many true mid-engine or rear engine cars I've driven. I drove the Boxster as hard as the Stook, but the Stook's tail had to be monitored very closely as it would brake loose with much less warning than the Porsche's. BTW, the Boxster was also shod with S02's so I don't think that is the problem. And while I haven't run with R-compound tires on the Stook yet, I understand that can exacerbate the problem...is that true Jason?
To me the "snap" part comes from the extremely rapid transition from very mild understeer to very heavy oversteer while in a steady state turn (not even decreasing radius or off camber) without additional acceleration or deceleration.
I used to autox a Miata and would have tried my hand at Nationals had I enough leave time from work to do so. The Miata is a wonderful handling car and I can count the number of times I spun on one hand and most of those spins were while I was learning the autox sport. My E36M3 was nearly as forgiving as the Miata and the number of times I spun it at an autox was zero. My test drive for my S2k was taking the salesman on a wild Saturday ride at the autox course which was set up and waiting for Sunday's event (that is an interesting story which includes test driving a Boxster and an RSX on the same course, but it's a story for another time.
) On the first run I took it very easy but quickly realized the Stook would spin nearly as hard and as fast as many true mid-engine or rear engine cars I've driven. I drove the Boxster as hard as the Stook, but the Stook's tail had to be monitored very closely as it would brake loose with much less warning than the Porsche's. BTW, the Boxster was also shod with S02's so I don't think that is the problem. And while I haven't run with R-compound tires on the Stook yet, I understand that can exacerbate the problem...is that true Jason?To me the "snap" part comes from the extremely rapid transition from very mild understeer to very heavy oversteer while in a steady state turn (not even decreasing radius or off camber) without additional acceleration or deceleration.
01-22-2002, 07:07 PM
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To me the "snap" part comes from the extremely rapid transition from very mild understeer to very heavy oversteer while in a steady state turn (not even decreasing radius or off camber) without additional acceleration or deceleration.
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Yep, that seems to fit the bill the way I understand it as well. This is probably the thing that I'd want to avoid the most (in any car) .... had it happen on my MR2 once before I got my tyres sorted out (ie. went to S01 and then S02s). Have you experienced this in the S2000? I have not myself as I don't really get any undesteer ... well I do, but it is almost impossible to induce it once I'm in a 2nd gear (or higher). I do worry that it could happen, but it hasn't.
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you have a very well dialed in car then. Get your alignment checked for a baseline and make sure you keep that set up.
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I had the allignemnt/setup done by a local professional outfit so it's in a way setup this way for a purpose. Though, the reason I had it done in the 1st place was not 'snap oversteer' but just too much oversteer. My back used to slide around too eazy for my liking. In a way it's still not as well planted as I'd like, but at all times so far (ie. before and afte the allignment) the car was very progressive and controllable when the back did step out. That is one thing that I'm really glad about with the S2000 as the back still does step out sometimes when I would not think it should.
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Interesting to see the comments here re the MR2. David, the one and only time I have experienced snap oversteer is at Phillip Island flat tack through turn 8 at around 170km/h - exactly the same spot you lost your MR2.
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yep. I took a different line through this corner on this one particular lap (probably over that bump) and the back of the MR2 went one way, which I barelly caught but then it 'snapped' the other way and I was gone ... ended up doing at least six 360s. I'd like to have better rear-bump-control in the S2000 as the bumps do really unsettle the back still too much for my liking. Then even then when the back has stepped out for me in the S2000, I have always been able to bring it back without a 'snap'.
To me the "snap" part comes from the extremely rapid transition from very mild understeer to very heavy oversteer while in a steady state turn (not even decreasing radius or off camber) without additional acceleration or deceleration.
-----------------------------------
Yep, that seems to fit the bill the way I understand it as well. This is probably the thing that I'd want to avoid the most (in any car) .... had it happen on my MR2 once before I got my tyres sorted out (ie. went to S01 and then S02s). Have you experienced this in the S2000? I have not myself as I don't really get any undesteer ... well I do, but it is almost impossible to induce it once I'm in a 2nd gear (or higher). I do worry that it could happen, but it hasn't.
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you have a very well dialed in car then. Get your alignment checked for a baseline and make sure you keep that set up.
-----------------------------------
I had the allignemnt/setup done by a local professional outfit so it's in a way setup this way for a purpose. Though, the reason I had it done in the 1st place was not 'snap oversteer' but just too much oversteer. My back used to slide around too eazy for my liking. In a way it's still not as well planted as I'd like, but at all times so far (ie. before and afte the allignment) the car was very progressive and controllable when the back did step out. That is one thing that I'm really glad about with the S2000 as the back still does step out sometimes when I would not think it should.
-----------------------------------
Interesting to see the comments here re the MR2. David, the one and only time I have experienced snap oversteer is at Phillip Island flat tack through turn 8 at around 170km/h - exactly the same spot you lost your MR2.
-----------------------------------
yep. I took a different line through this corner on this one particular lap (probably over that bump) and the back of the MR2 went one way, which I barelly caught but then it 'snapped' the other way and I was gone ... ended up doing at least six 360s. I'd like to have better rear-bump-control in the S2000 as the bumps do really unsettle the back still too much for my liking. Then even then when the back has stepped out for me in the S2000, I have always been able to bring it back without a 'snap'.