Jason Saini

It's been experienced by many, but not by everyone... and yes, most people that post about it haven't experienced it. But I have experienced it, many times and with the car is many states of tune from bone stock to set up for SCCA Autocross to the King/Mugen SS2000. Obviously, with each higher state of tune, the tendency to snap oversteer decreases. The SS2000 is very stable and will almost never display that tendency, where as our autocross car uses the stock springs, and snaps with more fequency.

Here's my impression of snap oversteer as it relates to the S2000:

1. It only happens when the car is at 10/10ths... not even at 9.5/10ths
2. It is not always associated with a lift... I've had it happen while on the gas several times, including at the track.
3. Bump-steer is a contributing factor... if a tire is at 100% traction and then you hit a patch of bumps, the toe angle oscillating will break that tire loose, which obviously can happen unexpectedly.
4. Once again, for the record, bump-steer has been measured to be excessive in the S2000.
5. It has to do with unexpected oversteer... hence the term 'snap' - in other words, the car will be sliding or stable in steady-state and then all of a sudden the rear will slide out, often in a hard-to-catch slide.
6. Novices are most affected by this, because they don't have the reflexes to catch the slide... it catches them out when they try to push the car, and through inexperience push the car to 11/10ths.

So in conclusion, if you never drive at 10/10ths or rarely drive at 10/10ths than it's an issue you will never have to deal with. For experienced drivers that know what that is, you will never experience the problem. Most experienced drivers never push to 10/10ths on the street, because they know better. More inexperienced drivers shouldn't try to push this car if they don't know what the limits are!

So I can understand that some people haven't experienced snap oversteer, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen or doesn't exist!

Allan Haggai

Good explanation Jason. I'll agree with others that the word has been over used and mis-applied. It is one of those words like "road rage" that everyone wants to say because it sounds cool!

Dookie

Jason has a good point, it only happens at 9.5/10 to 10/10. There is no justification for driving at that level on the road -- it is just too dangerous. Having not tracked my car, I cannot comment regarding true "snap oversteer."

However, Jason's comments bolsters my belief that for most of the complaints regarding "snap oversteer" are simply due to driver inexperience/error particularly when going too fast for the conditions or their abilities.

Again, I've never found myself that out of shape on the road. The rear end will come out a little, but, by no means, is it "snap oversteer." Regarding the VTEC in mid-corner causing oversteer comment -- you know where the VTEC engagement point is -- so plan around it.

AlexM

Maybe what people mean is if you let off the gas too much once in a drift the car will snap back violently, possibly causing it to spin the other way if you don't straighten the steering. That happened to me once (not the spin part), taught me to keep on it once in a drift. I would imagine that would be true with all rear wheel drive cars, regaining grip in the rear with front wheels still turned should cause any car to snap back. Otherwise, I found the car to be easily controllable in a drift as well, except there is no warning prior to losing the grip. (S02 are quiet bitches).

Strike

This is a touchy subject because there are people on both sides of the fence, and they are all passionate. About the only thing that seems even remotely agreed to by both sides is that the "issue", if it is an issue, only surfaces at or near the limits of the car. But when you are at or near the limits of the car the slightest mistake can cause this situation to happen, absent any help from the car. So what is it, the car, the driver, sometimes one or the other, and/or sometimes both? I've heard that all cars have their quirks and there is no perfect sports car. Is this behavior, that only occurs at the limit, our car's "quirk"? Dunno. I don't really think any of us can say with 100% certainty. I will say that I'm happy with the handling of the car. Maybe as I become a better driver I'll see this issue more than I do now. I think this will continue to be a hotly contested issue though.

kster

This is the article that E30M3 is referring to. It was a test by Road & Track, named Modern Gladiators where the S2000 was compared with the Audi TT, M Roadster and Boxster S.

This was the quote by Steve Millen:

"The Honda feels so light! When you drive it after the other cars, it feels like a toy. And you have much quicker-ratio steering [than the TT]. What's interesting about the S2000 is that you really need to push the front wheels as much as you can, because it has a tendency to snap-oversteer. You can get some corners right, but if you're out just a little bit on others, it gets nervous and jerky. It requires a lot more work than the other cars; you're up and down through the gears a lot. There's more effort and concentration needed to make this car go quick, but by the same token it's an awful lot of fun."

minboost

Being an MR2 owner, which is known for snap oversteer, we define it as:

The car oversteers, you countersteer, but as the inside tires lifts the suspension geometry (on the mr2) causes the wheel to toe-out. Once the car catches grip and flings you back it will snap you into a big oversteer the other way (rather than just catching and putting you in the direction your front wheels are pointed).

MR2 owners probably have a much bigger problem with this than S2k owners because of the rear-biased weight and bad suspension geometry from the factory 91-92 MR2.

-minboost-
91 MR2, turbo swapped, TD06SH-2G
soon to be 02 S2000!

Penforhire

I've also experienced the snap but only at Auto-X (and on S02's). Jason was very lucid in his description. I know for a fact I was not throttle lifting (easy to detect when your foot is to the floor). We had a particular practice course last year and a particular corner ALWAYS made the rear step out unexpectedly and impossible to counter (at full throttle) unless you started countersteering BEFORE you actually broke loose. The corner had a bumpy surface but no really big lumps. The local hotshoes who drove my car in the same corner felt an odd weight transfer during steady-state cornering, like a rear shock failure, but I can also see how bump steer could be the root cause.

Wow. The person who started this thread actually felt the Miata is harder to handle in an oversteer situation? No way, no how! I've seen plenty of raced Miatas and they are all easier to gather back up than the S2K. Maybe the 500+ lb weight difference is the trick?

jschmidt

"Snap" merely means quick and unexpected. Some of the observations above are quite lucid. Whether the driver gets into it and can recover is the driver part. That it happens is the suspension/tire part. I think the war about whether or not the condition exists is over.

I too have Yokos and have noticed a pronounced improvement, whatever the reason.

Tonky

My previous car was an MR2, and I can vouch for the accuracy of this assessment. That 'mid engined car' has most of the weight over the back axle. Many people have a hard time believing that 'mid engined cars' are prone to spin, but the fact is when they go, they go big time! The MR2 is a great car IMHO.

Whilst we do seem to be covering old ground, there are always new members joining. I find it very encouraging that these 'handling' threads have obviously been taken to heart by members, from the amount of comment they've generated. It's great also, that whilst we aren't out of the woods yet with this winter, we haven't seen the spate of accidents that I feared given the explosion in membership, and the fact that many members would have bought the car in the Spring and Summer months. I don't think anyone is trying to be a 'know all' or a 'smart arse' here, but for most of us driving the car in a normal highway environment most problems can be avoided by just appreciating the performance nature of the car we've chosen, and making allowance for varying conditions and our own abilities.