Taming an AP1
07-03-2013, 12:48 PM
#41
07-03-2013, 03:15 PM
#42
Originally Posted by Someday2k' timestamp='1372770676' post='22642681
People claim that an AP1 is twitchy. What do they mean by that? Why is an AP1 so twitchy? And, how can you tame it?
1) Fix the driver.
2) Fix the driver.
3) Fix the driver.
4) Repeat steps 1-3.
07-04-2013, 01:54 AM
#43
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From what I know the ap1 has more oversteer and honda also added some supports in the chassis on the ap2. I went with a ap1 because I wanted that 9k rpm engine also it helped that the ap1 is cheaper since its older. All you need to do is just learn how to keep a car under control if you get some oversteer. Some track time and some advice will get you a long ways. What ever you pick just enjoy the hell out of it which isn't hard to do.
07-04-2013, 07:45 AM
#44
From what I know the ap1 has more oversteer and honda also added some supports in the chassis on the ap2. I went with a ap1 because I wanted that 9k rpm engine also it helped that the ap1 is cheaper since its older. All you need to do is just learn how to keep a car under control if you get some oversteer. Some track time and some advice will get you a long ways. What ever you pick just enjoy the hell out of it which isn't hard to do.
They corrected the oversteer because people have bad driver skills, not because there is anything wrong with an oversteer setup. Oversteering should be faster. Staying on throttle with lots of grip up front in theory means faster cornering.
The fact is Ap1/Ap2 stock track the same times.
07-04-2013, 06:20 PM
#45
Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Some87' timestamp='1372931678' post='22646906
From what I know the ap1 has more oversteer and honda also added some supports in the chassis on the ap2. I went with a ap1 because I wanted that 9k rpm engine also it helped that the ap1 is cheaper since its older. All you need to do is just learn how to keep a car under control if you get some oversteer. Some track time and some advice will get you a long ways. What ever you pick just enjoy the hell out of it which isn't hard to do.
They corrected the oversteer because people have bad driver skills, not because there is anything wrong with an oversteer setup. Oversteering should be faster. Staying on throttle with lots of grip up front in theory means faster cornering.
The fact is Ap1/Ap2 stock track the same times.
argue the results if you must, but I really do think this was a quite well done comparison.although I do think it's a bit more even in autox. to be honest though, track times are not always very accurate, it depends on the driver and conditions plain and simple.
07-04-2013, 08:31 PM
#46
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by rob-2' timestamp='1372952756' post='22647307
[quote name='Some87' timestamp='1372931678' post='22646906']
From what I know the ap1 has more oversteer and honda also added some supports in the chassis on the ap2. I went with a ap1 because I wanted that 9k rpm engine also it helped that the ap1 is cheaper since its older. All you need to do is just learn how to keep a car under control if you get some oversteer. Some track time and some advice will get you a long ways. What ever you pick just enjoy the hell out of it which isn't hard to do.
From what I know the ap1 has more oversteer and honda also added some supports in the chassis on the ap2. I went with a ap1 because I wanted that 9k rpm engine also it helped that the ap1 is cheaper since its older. All you need to do is just learn how to keep a car under control if you get some oversteer. Some track time and some advice will get you a long ways. What ever you pick just enjoy the hell out of it which isn't hard to do.
They corrected the oversteer because people have bad driver skills, not because there is anything wrong with an oversteer setup. Oversteering should be faster. Staying on throttle with lots of grip up front in theory means faster cornering.
The fact is Ap1/Ap2 stock track the same times.
argue the results if you must, but I really do think this was a quite well done comparison.although I do think it's a bit more even in autox. to be honest though, track times are not always very accurate, it depends on the driver and conditions plain and simple.
[/quote]
Inwatch everything from BMI. Just watching them made me want a s2k
07-05-2013, 05:24 AM
#47
Originally Posted by rob-2' timestamp='1372952756' post='22647307
[quote name='Some87' timestamp='1372931678' post='22646906']
From what I know the ap1 has more oversteer and honda also added some supports in the chassis on the ap2. I went with a ap1 because I wanted that 9k rpm engine also it helped that the ap1 is cheaper since its older. All you need to do is just learn how to keep a car under control if you get some oversteer. Some track time and some advice will get you a long ways. What ever you pick just enjoy the hell out of it which isn't hard to do.
From what I know the ap1 has more oversteer and honda also added some supports in the chassis on the ap2. I went with a ap1 because I wanted that 9k rpm engine also it helped that the ap1 is cheaper since its older. All you need to do is just learn how to keep a car under control if you get some oversteer. Some track time and some advice will get you a long ways. What ever you pick just enjoy the hell out of it which isn't hard to do.
They corrected the oversteer because people have bad driver skills, not because there is anything wrong with an oversteer setup. Oversteering should be faster. Staying on throttle with lots of grip up front in theory means faster cornering.
The fact is Ap1/Ap2 stock track the same times.
argue the results if you must, but I really do think this was a quite well done comparison.although I do think it's a bit more even in autox. to be honest though, track times are not always very accurate, it depends on the driver and conditions plain and simple.
[/quote]
Not arguing fact is there is no performance difference between the different setups. The run the same track times, even for example that ap1's consistently put out less wheel hp. That video touches on everything I've stated.
Track times with highly skilled drivers pretty much tell all. Totally throws aside 'stats' like 1/4 mile, slalom and stopping distance. All of these stats come together in one package on the track.
We can debate opinions online all we want. Put down a time at the track.
07-05-2013, 06:05 AM
#48
AP1 rear suspension has toe change with bump. Rears toe in with bump, toe out in extension. This gives it nonlinear handling characteristics. Specifically, if you make the rookie mistake of giving a big LIFT off of the gas pedal during cornering, you get a big dose of oversteer as the outside rear toes relatively outward (this in addition to the big dose of oversteer from unloading the rears and loading the fronts).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
07-05-2013, 02:22 PM
#49
I've tried a wide range of static toe settings, and for me, minimal rear toe gives more linear handling characteristics. I run 0.1-0.2 degrees total rear toe-in (.05-.1 degrees per side). This also gives great rear tire life.
07-05-2013, 04:09 PM
#50
Understeer basised designs help low skilled drivers stay on the road when pushing the limits. As your natural reaction is to let off the gas giving you more grip up front.
They corrected the oversteer because people have bad driver skills, not because there is anything wrong with an oversteer setup. Oversteering should be faster. Staying on throttle with lots of grip up front in theory means faster cornering.
They corrected the oversteer because people have bad driver skills, not because there is anything wrong with an oversteer setup. Oversteering should be faster. Staying on throttle with lots of grip up front in theory means faster cornering.
In any case, the ap1 rear toe wankness is a separate issue. Given the same springs dampers sways and alignment settings, the ap1 outside rear toeing in while steady-state cornering would give more understeer vs ap2 rear geometry (minimal toe change). Lift off the throttle and AP1 oversteers more. Consistent toe => more consistent handling. I'm a big AP1 fan, but the ap2 rear geometry is just better.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post