Taming an AP1
07-02-2013, 02:15 PM
#21
They figured that having the outside rear toe in under hard cornering would make the car more forgiving at the limit, inducing more understeer the harder you corner. They apparently did this without taking into consideration what happens when the uninitiated LIFT off the throttle during cornering => outside rear toes relatively outward => even more oversteer than they deserved.
07-03-2013, 02:05 AM
#25
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Originally Posted by Someday2k' timestamp='1372776650' post='22642891
[quote name='ZDan' timestamp='1372775221' post='22642831']
AP1 rear suspension has toe change with bump. Rears toe in with bump, toe out in extension. This gives it nonlinear handling characteristics. Specifically, if you make the rookie mistake of giving a big LIFT off of the gas pedal during cornering, you get a big dose of oversteer as the outside rear toes relatively outward (this in addition to the big dose of oversteer from unloading the rears and loading the fronts).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
AP1 rear suspension has toe change with bump. Rears toe in with bump, toe out in extension. This gives it nonlinear handling characteristics. Specifically, if you make the rookie mistake of giving a big LIFT off of the gas pedal during cornering, you get a big dose of oversteer as the outside rear toes relatively outward (this in addition to the big dose of oversteer from unloading the rears and loading the fronts).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
So, what you are saying is, I would go into a turn and lift the gas, apply the brakes, load the fronts and unload the rears. The rear tires toe out making the car oversteer (tight)...yeah... I don't get it.
I guess I'll have to drive it to understand.Okay, thanks for setting me straight. I've got it backwards. So, basically, going hard into a turn the car tends to oversteer (get loose) because you are loading the front wheels enabling them to grip more, and unloading the rears causing them to toe out which is fine with me. I'd rather be loose than tight. But, regardless, it's apparently not a huge deal and it's just something I'd have to get used to.
So, basically what I'm hearig is the AP1 kicks like a banshee over 7000 rpm and gets loose under hard cornering if you lift off the gas. Okay, now I understand why it's twitchy and raw...and sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. Honda tamed all of that with the AP2 suspension and engine tweaks and gave the car more low end torque. So, that's the major difference between the performance of the AP1 and the AP2. Got it.
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If you're loading the front wheels, essentially slowing down in the corner, you're doing it wrong. You should have the car settled and balanced for the turn. From my understanding the loading and unloading with toe in and out of the ap1 is what causes the snap oversteer. So you're in the corner assuming your throttle is constant and thus keeping weight evenly distributed between the front and rear. You panic, lift off the throttle. Weight goes forward, rear decompresses and the toe setting changes causing the oversteer.
07-03-2013, 04:29 AM
#26
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"Keep your foot on the gas pedal while turning and you'll be fine" ???!!
I don't get it. Most times you want to hammer it on the straights and slow down in the corners so how do you do that while keeping your foot on the gas pedal while turning? You have to lift don't you? Somebody explain this to me.
I don't get it. Most times you want to hammer it on the straights and slow down in the corners so how do you do that while keeping your foot on the gas pedal while turning? You have to lift don't you? Somebody explain this to me.
07-03-2013, 04:40 AM
#28
you don't see or hear the driver lift in a corner, you hear gear changes and throttle matching.. and you stay on the power..
Heel and Toe... http://www.drivingfast.net/car-contr...m#.UdQbYunD9hE
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Heel and Toe... http://www.drivingfast.net/car-contr...m#.UdQbYunD9hE
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07-03-2013, 04:43 AM
#29
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As always: driver education. Track and/or autocross it.
Top Gear's explanation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoICf55jED8
With proper HPDE training you won't fully lift in the middle of a turn and apply the brakes (and then post here about how the car and/or conditions caused you to wreck the car). Again, get some seat time with an instructor.
07-03-2013, 04:59 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by Someday2k' timestamp='1372770676' post='22642681
I'm leaning toward an AP1 because I want to drive something that requires all my attention.
As always: driver education. Track and/or autocross it.
Top Gear's explanation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoICf55jED8
With proper HPDE training you won't fully lift in the middle of a turn and apply the brakes (and then post here about how the car and/or conditions caused you to wreck the car). Again, get some seat time with an instructor.
Takeshi - thanks for the info.
This website is pretty freakin' sweet. Just a crap load of information here. It's awesome.