Taming an AP1
#11
So, why the freak would they design the suspension so that the rear tires toe in under compression and toe out with extension? Is there some advantage to that? Seems to me you'd want it to be the other way around.
#12
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Originally Posted by ZDan' timestamp='1372775221' post='22642831
AP1 rear suspension has toe change with bump. Rears toe in with bump, toe out in extension. This gives it nonlinear handling characteristics. Specifically, if you make the rookie mistake of giving a big LIFT off of the gas pedal during cornering, you get a big dose of oversteer as the outside rear toes relatively outward (this in addition to the big dose of oversteer from unloading the rears and loading the fronts).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
So, what you are saying is, I would go into a turn and lift the gas, apply the brakes, load the fronts and unload the rears. The rear tires toe out making the car oversteer (tight)...yeah... I don't get it. I guess I'll have to drive it to understand.
Okay, thanks for setting me straight. I've got it backwards. So, basically, going hard into a turn the car tends to oversteer (get loose) because you are loading the front wheels enabling them to grip more, and unloading the rears causing them to toe out which is fine with me. I'd rather be loose than tight. But, regardless, it's apparently not a huge deal and it's just something I'd have to get used to.
So, basically what I'm hearig is the AP1 kicks like a banshee over 7000 rpm and gets loose under hard cornering if you lift off the gas. Okay, now I understand why it's twitchy and raw...and sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. Honda tamed all of that with the AP2 suspension and engine tweaks and gave the car more low end torque. So, that's the major difference between the performance of the AP1 and the AP2. Got it.
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Originally Posted by Someday2k' timestamp='1372776650' post='22642891
I always get oversteer and understeer confused. Oversteer means you turn the wheel but the car doesn't turn (tight in NASCAR terminology) and understeer means you turn the wheel and the front turns but the rear kicks out on you (Loose in NASCAR lingo) right?
So, why the freak would they design the suspension so that the rear tires toe in under compression and toe out with extension? Is there some advantage to that? Seems to me you'd want it to be the other way around.
Thanks Dan.
#14
The effect is reduced with stiffer springs/dampers/sways, as there is less vertical movement of the rears under the same conditions. Stock suspension is worst-case.
#16
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00-01 cars had an extremely stiff rear sway bar. Swap it with a 02-09 rear bar and it gives you less oversteer and better compliance over bumps while cornering.
Another major factor is tires. A lot of the early guys who spun their cars (and gave the AP1 a bad reputation) were riding on worn out rear tires or using the wrong tires. The original 225/50/16 S-02 rear tires were actually more like 245. Swap out the OEM with another 225/50/16 and you've instantly lost rear grip. Same with the fronts. The 205/55/16 S-02 front tires were more like 195 or even 185. Swap out the OEM with another 205 and you've increased your front grip, which leads to oversteer.
The whole bumpsteer toe-change issue is overrated. A few minor changes and some good tires and the AP1 is fine.
Another major factor is tires. A lot of the early guys who spun their cars (and gave the AP1 a bad reputation) were riding on worn out rear tires or using the wrong tires. The original 225/50/16 S-02 rear tires were actually more like 245. Swap out the OEM with another 225/50/16 and you've instantly lost rear grip. Same with the fronts. The 205/55/16 S-02 front tires were more like 195 or even 185. Swap out the OEM with another 205 and you've increased your front grip, which leads to oversteer.
The whole bumpsteer toe-change issue is overrated. A few minor changes and some good tires and the AP1 is fine.
#17
a lotus super 7, is / was raw... an ap1 has a radio and air conditioning, power windows, give me a break... the Ap1, is ffffffing awesome... drive the chit out of it... I have an 01... the assend will come around faster then you can imagine if you let it.. learn the car.. drive the road or the track.. drive the conditions... gone through tires learning how it likes to be driven..it's one of those kind of cars.. from 02 on til 09 they played with different components with suspension and wheel tire choices.. til they nearly went back to 01 specs for the CR...
every owner / driver in here has their idea of what they want out of this car.. find out what it is you want first, then design which model you want to work with and build from there..
every owner / driver in here has their idea of what they want out of this car.. find out what it is you want first, then design which model you want to work with and build from there..
#19
ok...Honda designed the ap1 to have a change in rear toe when the rear end is loaded and unloaded. But why? Everyone on this forum says it has NO performance advantage at all. There has to be a reason why they did this..
#20
Here's an idea, maybe put some AP2 wheels on it to increase the amount of rubber on the ground and don't drive like an imbecile. It's a very fun car as long as you dont lift in the corner, and learn the car before your try to push it hard. (autoX reccomended, and it's fun too!) but at the end of the day, test drive both.