Taming an AP1
07-02-2013, 05:11 AM
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Taming an AP1
People claim that an AP1 is twitchy. What do they mean by that? Why is an AP1 so twitchy? And, how can you tame it?
I don't own an s2k yet but I will someday. I'm leaning toward an AP1 because I want to drive something that requires all my attention. That makes it fun. I figure the tighter steering rack and lack of stability control on the throttle (present on the AP2 from what I understand) will give me a sense of more direct control over exactly what the car is doing. I suppose that is what people mean when they describe the AP1 as "raw". Yeah, that sounds good to me. But, if I get an AP1 and find it's so raw that I can't relax and just enjoy it then...how do I tame it? What exactly makes it raw and how do you take the edge off?
I did a search for this topic but didn't find anything. If this has already been discussed before and you can point me to the thread, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks for the feedback. - Someday2k
I don't own an s2k yet but I will someday. I'm leaning toward an AP1 because I want to drive something that requires all my attention. That makes it fun. I figure the tighter steering rack and lack of stability control on the throttle (present on the AP2 from what I understand) will give me a sense of more direct control over exactly what the car is doing. I suppose that is what people mean when they describe the AP1 as "raw". Yeah, that sounds good to me. But, if I get an AP1 and find it's so raw that I can't relax and just enjoy it then...how do I tame it? What exactly makes it raw and how do you take the edge off?
I did a search for this topic but didn't find anything. If this has already been discussed before and you can point me to the thread, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks for the feedback. - Someday2k
07-02-2013, 05:54 AM
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The best research would be actually spending cockpit time in the AP1 and AP2. Each person has their own preferences.
A characteristic of the AP1 is having less torque outside of the vtec band than the AP2. This less than linear power application amplifies the feeling of the vtec engagement. A lot of people enjoy that sense of kick in the pants power at the top end of the RPMs. Other people don't.
Taming the AP1 is getting used to that power engagement and using it to benefit your driving ability.
What the AP1 isn't is rip roaring torque that will launch you off a bridge when you have a sneezing fit while driving. See Dodge Viper for that.
So nothing to lose sleep over.
A characteristic of the AP1 is having less torque outside of the vtec band than the AP2. This less than linear power application amplifies the feeling of the vtec engagement. A lot of people enjoy that sense of kick in the pants power at the top end of the RPMs. Other people don't.
Taming the AP1 is getting used to that power engagement and using it to benefit your driving ability.
What the AP1 isn't is rip roaring torque that will launch you off a bridge when you have a sneezing fit while driving. See Dodge Viper for that.
So nothing to lose sleep over.
07-02-2013, 06:15 AM
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Only way to "tame" an ap1 as you described is to get familiar with the cars handling characteristics. Best way to do it is autocross. I only see inexperience owners talk about the ap1 in a scared raw beast manner. They never probe the cars limits in a safe enviroment to understand it, so the one time they do it on the street, it scares the hell outta them.
07-02-2013, 06:17 AM
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The best research would be actually spending cockpit time in the AP1 and AP2. Each person has their own preferences.
A characteristic of the AP1 is having less torque outside of the vtec band than the AP2. This less than linear power application amplifies the feeling of the vtec engagement. A lot of people enjoy that sense of kick in the pants power at the top end of the RPMs. Other people don't.
Taming the AP1 is getting used to that power engagement and using it to benefit your driving ability.
What the AP1 isn't is rip roaring torque that will launch you off a bridge when you have a sneezing fit while driving. See Dodge Viper for that.
So nothing to lose sleep over.
A characteristic of the AP1 is having less torque outside of the vtec band than the AP2. This less than linear power application amplifies the feeling of the vtec engagement. A lot of people enjoy that sense of kick in the pants power at the top end of the RPMs. Other people don't.
Taming the AP1 is getting used to that power engagement and using it to benefit your driving ability.
What the AP1 isn't is rip roaring torque that will launch you off a bridge when you have a sneezing fit while driving. See Dodge Viper for that.
So nothing to lose sleep over.
Hey El Borracho Chino,
Thanks for the explanation. I drove an AP2 and didn't notice a significant transition in the torque across the RPM range. I guess I'll have to drive an AP1 to understand what you are saying. So the AP1 almost feels like it has turbo lag without having a turbo, right? I guess to tame an AP1 I should buy an AP2 because Honda tamed it for me.
So the twitchiness isn't steering or suspension related? It's all engine power, how it's delivered, and getting used to that...right?
07-02-2013, 06:27 AM
#5
AP1 rear suspension has toe change with bump. Rears toe in with bump, toe out in extension. This gives it nonlinear handling characteristics. Specifically, if you make the rookie mistake of giving a big LIFT off of the gas pedal during cornering, you get a big dose of oversteer as the outside rear toes relatively outward (this in addition to the big dose of oversteer from unloading the rears and loading the fronts).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
07-02-2013, 06:50 AM
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AP1 rear suspension has toe change with bump. Rears toe in with bump, toe out in extension. This gives it nonlinear handling characteristics. Specifically, if you make the rookie mistake of giving a big LIFT off of the gas pedal during cornering, you get a big dose of oversteer as the outside rear toes relatively outward (this in addition to the big dose of oversteer from unloading the rears and loading the fronts).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
So, what you are saying is, I would go into a turn and lift the gas, apply the brakes, load the fronts and unload the rears. The rear tires toe out making the car oversteer (tight)...yeah... I don't get it.
I guess I'll have to drive it to understand.
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07-02-2013, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ZDan' timestamp='1372775221' post='22642831
AP1 rear suspension has toe change with bump. Rears toe in with bump, toe out in extension. This gives it nonlinear handling characteristics. Specifically, if you make the rookie mistake of giving a big LIFT off of the gas pedal during cornering, you get a big dose of oversteer as the outside rear toes relatively outward (this in addition to the big dose of oversteer from unloading the rears and loading the fronts).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
You just have to get used to it. Or swap in an AP2 rear subframe to have the lower toe/control arms relocated to minimize rear toe change. Or get an aftermarket bumpsteer kit which relocates the ball joint at the outer end of the toe/control arms (but these might require larger wheels and some have also been prone to failure).
So, what you are saying is, I would go into a turn and lift the gas, apply the brakes, load the fronts and unload the rears. The rear tires toe out making the car oversteer (tight)...yeah... I don't get it.
I guess I'll have to drive it to understand.