HarryD

Great video man, looks like a fun event and your rear end gets loose very predictably, which is awesome. I recognize your screename enough to realize that you and I will never see eye to eye on the snap oversteer issue.

You haven't personally experienced it, and ergo, believe it does not exist (shaky logic, if you ask me). Some of us have experienced it, and know it's rare, but exists, given the right [wrong] conditions. I could argue that Honda also acknowledged the existence of the issue:

• by softening the chassis every year
• and then redesigning around the toe-out issue with the AP2
• as well as Honda UK issuing the infamous "UK Alignment" due to all the wet roads in sunny England

We can argue all day on the forums about it, as we tend to do, about whether it's the car, tires, suspension, weather or road conditions -- or combination of all of the above -- and so we shall until the end of time

But regardless, I think all of us don't think it's a flaw per-se, and love the car to death regardless of where we stand on the issue.

B serious

No worries, my friend. My primary goal really isn't to gain agreement. I'm just sharing my experiences with my car over the last 10 years.

I will agree that softening the chassis made it more driveable. But...won't agree that it is significantly more predictable.

I took my wife's AP2 around the track for funsies. It was much easier to drive because the back wheels followed the front much better lol. And yeah, you can be more comfortable going fast in a AP2. And generally speaking, for many reasons including power, gearing, etc....the AP2 is a better/more consistently faster car.

My secondary goal was to hopefully help anyone who is stuck in a rut of just chalking up bad driving to "this car is not driveable".

Also...FWIW, I have experienced snap oversteer exactly 2 times lol. Neither was the car's fault.

1.) Mushed tar line got the car sideways at Autobahn CC. Hit a tire wall at what I later learned is named "million dollar corner" because of the amount of cars that eat it there.

2.) Oil slick. Caught it in time and there wasn't any drama.

Would another RWD car have been less prone to oversteer in those situations? meh. not sure.

jyeung528

well here's the thing, have you had the KW V3's the entire time? because stiffening up the spring rates will dramatically remove the unpredictability of the rear end breaking loose as there is less dynamic toe change under load.

the sensitivity issue is really pronounced on stock ap1 spring rates. when I upgraded to swift springs, the predictability of the rear end was a lot better. this is considering the use of the oem toe arms.

many people tame the rear end using anti-bumpsteer rear toe arms.

B serious

Bought the car 100% stock. Went to Road America 8 days after purchase.

Tracked the car:
-Stock

-Skunk2 springs

-Skunk2 springs and 225/255 (17") stagger

-KW V3 with 225/255, 225/265, 255/265, (17") stagger, 255/255 (17") square.

-KW V3 with 12K/10K springs and 255/265, 255/255 (17") stagger.

-Öhlins DFV with 255/255 (17") square.

Again. Over the course of 10 years on the street and the track....NEVER had unexpected oversteer besides the times I ran over tar or oil that I didn't see .

The point of the video is to show that getting it to oversteer takes some effort. If you're putting forth the effort, you should expect oversteer.

"Unexpected" oversteer happens when someone doesn't know that they were putting in said effort.

But...if you didn't know that you were making the moves toward getting the car to oversteer, then maybe learn the car in a safe environment. That way, you know what to expect.

I'm not saying that the car isn't tail happy. Im saying that there are solid (non theoretical or mythical) reasons why the car oversteers when it does.

The factor in whether the oversteer is unexpected or expected is whether the DRIVER expects it or doesn't . The car, on the other hand, has a definite behaviour that is easily predicted.

Snap = unexpected behaviour.

I just call it regularass oversteer. Because its massively predictable.

Car Analogy

Hmmm. Maybe part of the disagreements come from differing definitions. To me, 'snap' isn't necessarily unexpected, but rather much more rapid and intense than anticipated.

Every time the rear has come around in my stock '06, its been when I realized it was pending, but the speed at which it progresses often still surprises me. Once it finally starts, in a blink the tail has already stepped out significantly.

You know that thing where everything goes in slow motion when your adrenaline kicks in? Yeah, that doesn't happen here. If you aleady know what to do and can do it subconsciously, you find yourself automatically responding to it at the same time you consciously realize the time to act has arrived.

If you don't yet have the skills to do it subconsciously, you spin into a ditch. Only realizing its time to react after its too late to catch it.

In other rwd drive cars I've owned in the past, big, old American cars, the tail would step out slooooowly. You recognized the moment it started, and could practically count out the seconds as it progressed. You had time to think about to do, and time to see what effect it was having, time to dial in more, or less reaction. The problem there was momentum. It was tough to catch smoothly, like trying to steer a barge with its mind already set where it wanted to go.

The beauty of the S is its so responsive. Of course, that is also what makes the stepping out progress so rapidly in the first place. Responsiveness is both the cause and the cure.

Snap oversteer = breathtakingly rapid progession of oversteer

B serious

^Yes.

I'll agree that it transitions into oversteer much faster than larger, softer cars. But in a snap/instant? ehhhh nah. There's definite warning signs leading up to it .

Take a look at peoples' "snap oversteer" crash videos on YouTube . If youve driven a S2000 hard...you'll see that even through a camera, you could see the oversteer coming from miles away. Just like you can likely see each slide coming from miles away in the vid I posted.

And I'll buy the "learning curve" thing only if we're actually encouraging some learning. The car really shouldn't catch you sleeping more than once. If you're paying attention, you can figure out this car's pattern pretty fast. After that...just don't drive within that envelope on the street....and hold back a bit at a track event until you're confident you can get yourself out of a situation.

Maybe that's the difference. From what I see, a staggering majority of people who get caught off guard and end up in ditches have things in common:
-They're inexperienced.
-They've never tracked the car.
-The incident happened on a public road.

B serious

More concisely, they over-committed to the corner by entering WAY too fast, and tried to back out of the situation by lifting off the gas at high RPM, while the car was already at the edge of grip, midcorner.

THEN they left the car in gear (throttle completely closed) until it was at ehhh...70-90 degrees from the intended travel path while white knuckle clutching the steering wheel at the wrong angle?

Then they jam on the brakes with their hands still holding the steering wheel at the same angle as the car slides hopelessly towards the ditch/curb/whatever.

Each one of those takes time.

And would any other RWD sports car have given a different reaction? Probably not.

Would a driver have more time to react or more chances to correct their behaviour in a Z3 or Miata or 240SX or Camaro? Probably yes, by a small margin.

Car Analogy

Agreed. But again, deference in definition, at least in my mind. I always thought of snap as meaning it progresses unexpectedly fast. You may see it coming, you may realize its about to happen, maybe you were even trying to enduce it for practicing recovery, but once it starts it progresses faster than your brain can consciously process. Reaction time isn't enough. Its not enough to know what you're supposed to do, it has to be something you do automatically, at unconscious level. It has to already be ingrained. You either already have this skill, learned from slower reacting cars, or you learn it in the S on track or autocross, from exceeding the limits and eventually learning how to recover, as well as how to prevent.

The problem is when people do this on the street, its usually not a simple spin out that they drive away from, only thing bruised is ego.

So its kinda like you're in a Bruce Lee movie, and you're one of the bad guys. You've rehearsed the fight scene numerous times, in tai chi like slow motion. But when Director yells Action!, The blows from BL come so fast and furious you are just now feeling the pain from the first one even as you are amazed to see your hands moving to try and block the fourth one. You are reacting automatically, just trying to keep up.

Yeah, the S is like Bruce Lee...

HarryD

And... the Miata is like the slightly softer, nicer, Jackie Chan?

(I personally love both cars --- er, uhm, actors!)

B serious

Lol. good analogy; Car Analogy.

But.... you shouldn't go be a stunt actor with Bruce Lee without first knowing something about stunt acting.

And your reactions to ANY car should be "built in" as reflexes. Otherwise...drive a little slower. Any car reacts faster when you drive it faster.