Snap oversteer
09-11-2016, 08:20 AM
#141
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Illnoise. WAY downtown, jerky.
Posts: 8,359
Received 1,377 Likes
on
1,029 Posts
I think that it's 2016 and we should move on from believing in this snap oversteer boogeyman. The situations I've read above are people who are just doing things conducive to making a car oversteer.
If you're poking a bear in the eye with a stick, he doesn't snap-swat at you, unexpectedly out of nowhere.
The one time in 10 years I've experienced "SNAP" oversteer was when I went through a turn that I didn't expect to have oil on it from another car. Easily caught. Nothing happened. In the seat, you'll feel the car break away. Loosen your grip on the steering wheel immediately. Let it run through your fingers and find center. Then guide it as needed.
Also...before you drive around like a fool on the street. Try tracking the car. You'll be surprised at how much you learn to prevent any "snap" oversteer from happening in the first place.
Its easier to learn to be proactive than to be reactive to things that happen very quickly and need a built-in reaction as a reflex. Tracking it is a better way to learn than buying wings, wheels, and bumpsteer kits to butter over a car that you don't know how to drive.
If you're poking a bear in the eye with a stick, he doesn't snap-swat at you, unexpectedly out of nowhere.
The one time in 10 years I've experienced "SNAP" oversteer was when I went through a turn that I didn't expect to have oil on it from another car. Easily caught. Nothing happened. In the seat, you'll feel the car break away. Loosen your grip on the steering wheel immediately. Let it run through your fingers and find center. Then guide it as needed.
Also...before you drive around like a fool on the street. Try tracking the car. You'll be surprised at how much you learn to prevent any "snap" oversteer from happening in the first place.
Its easier to learn to be proactive than to be reactive to things that happen very quickly and need a built-in reaction as a reflex. Tracking it is a better way to learn than buying wings, wheels, and bumpsteer kits to butter over a car that you don't know how to drive.
09-13-2016, 01:37 AM
#142
Registered User
Originally Posted by theprophet36' timestamp='1473497650' post='24058891
Since my LS swap I haven't experienced any throttle-lift oversteer. Another pleasant benefit to the swap 
Thanks!
09-23-2016, 03:34 AM
#143
Originally Posted by freeform' timestamp='1473152617' post='24055616
Great thread, with the people who really do know explaining, and those who don’t listening.
About me: 54 years old, had more rear-drive than front-drive, did some sprints, slaloms & grass Autotests and special stage rallying as co-driver - all a long time ago. Professionally, an automotive development engineer (powertrain), spent many years working on cars as a hobbyist.
My S2000 (Early 2006 UK market, so F20c with facelift body & 17” wheels, standard suspension and geometry set, standard size OE spec RE050s on front, non-OE RE050s on back) handles as described and I am fine with that, just how I like it – as long as the road (or track) is smooth and flat.
What is discussed less often, and what I like less about the car, is where the road is undulating and bumpy (very common in most parts of Britain):
Then, even on the straights, it takes some concentration to drive quickly (not recklessly fast) due, I believe to varying rear toe with suspension travel.
On twisting roads, with the car unweighting and compressing its suspension, one can feel the transition of the outside rear wheel from toe-in to out and back in. At the very least it gives one more work to do, more often one drives slower and with less commitment than should be possible and it is out of character with the car’s precision and composure on smooth roads.
Presently, I am considering fitting anti bumpsteer toe-control arms to the back. What puts me off is that all such products use spherical rod-end bearings both ends and I am wary from experience of using these on a road car (I had to replace them yearly at mandatory annual road safety ‘MoT’ test).
Some of these arms also look badly engineered – and not the cheapest ones either – and there are many reports of catastrophic failure, possibly by bad design (e.g. welded instead of forged bearing mounts(?)) but also sometimes caused by incorrect installation resulting in fatigue and fracture of the rod-end.
A design based upon the production arm – with rubber bush at the inner and conventional track-rod ball-joint at the outer so perhaps better for a road car – was marketed but the company ceased trading.
If someone has some advice on the above, I would be grateful.
Additional information:
I have not tracked or raced the car but would be interested in some kind of time-attack event, road-going class.
(cut)
About me: 54 years old, had more rear-drive than front-drive, did some sprints, slaloms & grass Autotests and special stage rallying as co-driver - all a long time ago. Professionally, an automotive development engineer (powertrain), spent many years working on cars as a hobbyist.
My S2000 (Early 2006 UK market, so F20c with facelift body & 17” wheels, standard suspension and geometry set, standard size OE spec RE050s on front, non-OE RE050s on back) handles as described and I am fine with that, just how I like it – as long as the road (or track) is smooth and flat.
What is discussed less often, and what I like less about the car, is where the road is undulating and bumpy (very common in most parts of Britain):
Then, even on the straights, it takes some concentration to drive quickly (not recklessly fast) due, I believe to varying rear toe with suspension travel.
On twisting roads, with the car unweighting and compressing its suspension, one can feel the transition of the outside rear wheel from toe-in to out and back in. At the very least it gives one more work to do, more often one drives slower and with less commitment than should be possible and it is out of character with the car’s precision and composure on smooth roads.
Presently, I am considering fitting anti bumpsteer toe-control arms to the back. What puts me off is that all such products use spherical rod-end bearings both ends and I am wary from experience of using these on a road car (I had to replace them yearly at mandatory annual road safety ‘MoT’ test).
Some of these arms also look badly engineered – and not the cheapest ones either – and there are many reports of catastrophic failure, possibly by bad design (e.g. welded instead of forged bearing mounts(?)) but also sometimes caused by incorrect installation resulting in fatigue and fracture of the rod-end.
A design based upon the production arm – with rubber bush at the inner and conventional track-rod ball-joint at the outer so perhaps better for a road car – was marketed but the company ceased trading.
If someone has some advice on the above, I would be grateful.
Additional information:
I have not tracked or raced the car but would be interested in some kind of time-attack event, road-going class.
(cut)
as far as advice, i ran the J's Racing rear toe arms. the result was that over these bumps, the toe change was COMPLETELY GONE. the car was as stable as I can possibly imagine over these same bumps that used to unsettle the car so easily. car became absolutely stable over these bumps. there is a SLIGHTLY noticeable difference in entering a corner whereby the car doesn't carve into the turn as sharply anymore, there is some additional slop but hardly noticeable.
regarding the replacement of the links on both ends, they do wear out in less than a year, HOWEVER, there are rubber covers that you can purchase that wrap around these links, keeping dirt and debris out. with these rubber covers, the links on both ends lasted me a good 4-5 years before I had to replace the links.
in the end, because of the issue you describe about failed endlinks, I decided not to take that chance and return to the oem toe arms. I would have probably been fine with the J's Racing build quality, but I just didn't want to take any risk at all, especially since someone confirmed that their friend had a J's Racing endlink fail on them. So I went back to the oem control arms, BUT at the same time I also upgraded to the ap2 17" wheels with 255 tires at the rear, running Sumitomo HTR III, and at the same time I installed Swift springs. I've had a swift front sway bar the entire time. I'll tell you, the snap oversteer problem and the toe change problem over bumps became a NON-ISSUE probably due to the stiff springs and the wider rear tires. Completely different car this way. It's not as stable as having the J's Racing control arms, but the liveliness in corner carving has returned but now it's more controllable and predictable (again probably due to the stiffer springs resulting in less suspension travel, and also the 255's help a lot too I'm sure).
hope this helps you.
I am fairly sure the UK/European market cars got the same updates as AP2, except retaining the 2.0 capacity and the closer gear ratios of AP1.
After much reading and thinking, I have come to the conclusion it would be best to work with the kind of solutions you describe above, particularly:
Tyre choice is a possibility too, though we don't have quite the same choice here in the UK compared with you in the USA, there would be something. These are potentially expensive experiments though when I am not doing enough miles to wear the old tyres out!
Sway bays (anti-roll bars in English!) are something I might try.
About aftermarket toe control arms...
When I was considering aftermarket toe arms, I looked at the elements of the design:
10-08-2016, 04:12 AM
#145
This is a lesson I learned long ago as a young guy. I am purely a street driver - but I do enjoy driving on winding roads in the country a great deal. I find this business of braking/downshifting before the corners and applying a touch of throttle through the corner and more on the way out is a great habit in all our driving. I am not even close to being an expert - I was taught this by my Dad when I was learning to drive at age 15 - and I think it really helps keep things under control and safe. If I find myself having to brake in a corner it is because I misjudged the corner and went into it too hot or something appeared on the roadway that I could not see on the way in. If my overall speed is on the low side then these situations are generally not an issue. But yes, if I come in too fast and I end up lifting the throttle or worse, touching the brake, and I combine that with bumps or water/oil on the road I have had the experience of losing the rear end. Not just in my s2k, other cars as well.
10-09-2016, 07:53 AM
#146
Originally Posted by zeroptzero' timestamp='1472270248' post='24048935
I do all my braking before I head into a corner, all the time and every time. Great habit to get into.
10-10-2016, 08:10 AM
#147
Originally Posted by rpg51' timestamp='1475928720' post='24079554
[quote name='zeroptzero' timestamp='1472270248' post='24048935']
I do all my braking before I head into a corner, all the time and every time. Great habit to get into.
I do all my braking before I head into a corner, all the time and every time. Great habit to get into.
[/quote]
This is a fundamental for beginning drivers. As is the term "don't lift". But lifting and using brakes are definitely techniques you need to learn once you get faster and more experienced.
10-10-2016, 02:36 PM
#148
good exercise is to tackle an entrance ramp in a steady arc with just enough steady throttle to give a little lean and tire squeal.
Lift the throttle slightly and you'll feel the car turn in slightly.
That's throttle steer
Lift the throttle slightly and you'll feel the car turn in slightly.
That's throttle steer
10-10-2016, 02:53 PM
#149
This is all very interesting - but I honestly do not now and will never drive on the track and I will not drive in this fashion on public roads. Not intentionally anyway.
10-10-2016, 03:01 PM
#150
I wish I could edit!!! That came out sounding negative which is not my intent. These more advanced techniques are indeed interesting to me. I would love to learn to use them. But, it just ain't in the cards, for a variety of reasons.