Snap oversteer
02-17-2016, 05:45 AM
#131
The other element is the set up of your s2k. How eager it is to under or over steer. If you have a rear biased car as most s2k typically are at 120mph with no aero lol, your not going to be trail braking on those sections because you will end up ass over end in the wall. If your car has great rear down force and a suspension that works, you may need to break late or even trail brake to get the car to rotate and turn in. This driving style is an exercise in weight transfer and you get to know real quick where your cars balance is running it in the top 10% of its capability, which is where all the good stuff happens lol.
The s2k is a pretty neutral car to begin with, but this can change depending on your speed, the tire stagger and suspension set up and driver style of driving, as well as just preference for a specific track itself will favor one set up over another in all or part of the track. But generally a neutral balanced car is the best, because it gives the driver the full bag of driving tools to get around any corner fast if he can hone it in. Its up to the driver to set his driving line, best entry and exit speed and car control/management in between. Managing your circle of traction to the fullest at all times is the basic goal. If your front is pushing or your rear coming around, your losing speed.
The s2k is a pretty neutral car to begin with, but this can change depending on your speed, the tire stagger and suspension set up and driver style of driving, as well as just preference for a specific track itself will favor one set up over another in all or part of the track. But generally a neutral balanced car is the best, because it gives the driver the full bag of driving tools to get around any corner fast if he can hone it in. Its up to the driver to set his driving line, best entry and exit speed and car control/management in between. Managing your circle of traction to the fullest at all times is the basic goal. If your front is pushing or your rear coming around, your losing speed.
02-17-2016, 06:18 AM
#132
I can personally say I've had two experiences with snap oversteer. My second time was a left hand turn, uphill, going into 2nd gear the car broke loose. I determined after that it happened after I let off the accelerator. There was a third time but I don't think I could count it as a snap since I went over dirt on the shoulder as I hit the on ramp. Third time was the charm though and I stepped on it to straighten her out. I'm not going to lie, I still don't know how to drive the S yet since I haven't had a chance to get some seat time in. For now I've just been focusing on driving smoothly. As an amateur it's going to take some practice to break the habit of lifting.
02-22-2016, 11:26 AM
#133
I can personally say I've had two experiences with snap oversteer. My second time was a left hand turn, uphill, going into 2nd gear the car broke loose. I determined after that it happened after I let off the accelerator. There was a third time but I don't think I could count it as a snap since I went over dirt on the shoulder as I hit the on ramp. Third time was the charm though and I stepped on it to straighten her out. I'm not going to lie, I still don't know how to drive the S yet since I haven't had a chance to get some seat time in. For now I've just been focusing on driving smoothly. As an amateur it's going to take some practice to break the habit of lifting.
08-26-2016, 04:01 PM
#135
Sir Jackie Stewart once said something to the effect of "never get on the throttle until you are certain you can stay there".
08-26-2016, 07:57 PM
#136
My ap1 has always leaned towards understeer at the limits, not sure why , but I like it as it tends to be safer.
I do all my braking before I head into a corner, all the time and every time. Great habit to get into.
I run 3/16ths inch total rear toe, the rear end feels nice and stable with this setting.
Hitting a bump in mid corner is one way to get the suspension to unload, and with the toe change occurring with suspension travel this can cause some real issues. Quite often this is one area where you have very little control and hitting a bump is often unexpected. Hopefully this doesn't happen too often.
I do all my braking before I head into a corner, all the time and every time. Great habit to get into.
I run 3/16ths inch total rear toe, the rear end feels nice and stable with this setting.
Hitting a bump in mid corner is one way to get the suspension to unload, and with the toe change occurring with suspension travel this can cause some real issues. Quite often this is one area where you have very little control and hitting a bump is often unexpected. Hopefully this doesn't happen too often.
09-06-2016, 01:03 AM
#137
Great thread, with the people who really do know explaining, and those who don’t listening.
About me: 54 years old, had more rear-drive than front-drive, did some sprints, slaloms & grass Autotests and special stage rallying as co-driver - all a long time ago. Professionally, an automotive development engineer (powertrain), spent many years working on cars as a hobbyist.
My S2000 (Early 2006 UK market, so F20c with facelift body & 17” wheels, standard suspension and geometry set, standard size OE spec RE050s on front, non-OE RE050s on back) handles as described and I am fine with that, just how I like it – as long as the road (or track) is smooth and flat.
What is discussed less often, and what I like less about the car, is where the road is undulating and bumpy (very common in most parts of Britain):
Then, even on the straights, it takes some concentration to drive quickly (not recklessly fast) due, I believe to varying rear toe with suspension travel.
On twisting roads, with the car unweighting and compressing its suspension, one can feel the transition of the outside rear wheel from toe-in to out and back in. At the very least it gives one more work to do, more often one drives slower and with less commitment than should be possible and it is out of character with the car’s precision and composure on smooth roads.
Presently, I am considering fitting anti bumpsteer toe-control arms to the back. What puts me off is that all such products use spherical rod-end bearings both ends and I am wary from experience of using these on a road car (I had to replace them yearly at mandatory annual road safety ‘MoT’ test).
Some of these arms also look badly engineered – and not the cheapest ones either – and there are many reports of catastrophic failure, possibly by bad design (e.g. welded instead of forged bearing mounts(?)) but also sometimes caused by incorrect installation resulting in fatigue and fracture of the rod-end.
A design based upon the production arm – with rubber bush at the inner and conventional track-rod ball-joint at the outer so perhaps better for a road car – was marketed but the company ceased trading.
If someone has some advice on the above, I would be grateful.
Additional information:
I have not tracked or raced the car but would be interested in some kind of time-attack event, road-going class.
A couple of observations:
1. I am astonished to read in foregoing posts that there are people – none here I trust – who regard letting go of the steering wheel to let it self-centre as a ‘driving technique’!
2. The S2000 is often criticised for lack of steering feel and the electric rack is blamed. I have not found this a problem; it is better, IME, than most front drive cars (as one would expect) and as good as most cars I have had since power steering became commonplace. Further, as the car does not understeer much, there may not be a lot to feel. Is seems people are looking for a problem that doesn’t exist.
About me: 54 years old, had more rear-drive than front-drive, did some sprints, slaloms & grass Autotests and special stage rallying as co-driver - all a long time ago. Professionally, an automotive development engineer (powertrain), spent many years working on cars as a hobbyist.
My S2000 (Early 2006 UK market, so F20c with facelift body & 17” wheels, standard suspension and geometry set, standard size OE spec RE050s on front, non-OE RE050s on back) handles as described and I am fine with that, just how I like it – as long as the road (or track) is smooth and flat.
What is discussed less often, and what I like less about the car, is where the road is undulating and bumpy (very common in most parts of Britain):
Then, even on the straights, it takes some concentration to drive quickly (not recklessly fast) due, I believe to varying rear toe with suspension travel.
On twisting roads, with the car unweighting and compressing its suspension, one can feel the transition of the outside rear wheel from toe-in to out and back in. At the very least it gives one more work to do, more often one drives slower and with less commitment than should be possible and it is out of character with the car’s precision and composure on smooth roads.
Presently, I am considering fitting anti bumpsteer toe-control arms to the back. What puts me off is that all such products use spherical rod-end bearings both ends and I am wary from experience of using these on a road car (I had to replace them yearly at mandatory annual road safety ‘MoT’ test).
Some of these arms also look badly engineered – and not the cheapest ones either – and there are many reports of catastrophic failure, possibly by bad design (e.g. welded instead of forged bearing mounts(?)) but also sometimes caused by incorrect installation resulting in fatigue and fracture of the rod-end.
A design based upon the production arm – with rubber bush at the inner and conventional track-rod ball-joint at the outer so perhaps better for a road car – was marketed but the company ceased trading.
If someone has some advice on the above, I would be grateful.
Additional information:
I have not tracked or raced the car but would be interested in some kind of time-attack event, road-going class.
A couple of observations:
1. I am astonished to read in foregoing posts that there are people – none here I trust – who regard letting go of the steering wheel to let it self-centre as a ‘driving technique’!
2. The S2000 is often criticised for lack of steering feel and the electric rack is blamed. I have not found this a problem; it is better, IME, than most front drive cars (as one would expect) and as good as most cars I have had since power steering became commonplace. Further, as the car does not understeer much, there may not be a lot to feel. Is seems people are looking for a problem that doesn’t exist.
09-09-2016, 11:01 PM
#138
Registered User
Great thread, with the people who really do know explaining, and those who don’t listening.
About me: 54 years old, had more rear-drive than front-drive, did some sprints, slaloms & grass Autotests and special stage rallying as co-driver - all a long time ago. Professionally, an automotive development engineer (powertrain), spent many years working on cars as a hobbyist.
My S2000 (Early 2006 UK market, so F20c with facelift body & 17” wheels, standard suspension and geometry set, standard size OE spec RE050s on front, non-OE RE050s on back) handles as described and I am fine with that, just how I like it – as long as the road (or track) is smooth and flat.
What is discussed less often, and what I like less about the car, is where the road is undulating and bumpy (very common in most parts of Britain):
Then, even on the straights, it takes some concentration to drive quickly (not recklessly fast) due, I believe to varying rear toe with suspension travel.
On twisting roads, with the car unweighting and compressing its suspension, one can feel the transition of the outside rear wheel from toe-in to out and back in. At the very least it gives one more work to do, more often one drives slower and with less commitment than should be possible and it is out of character with the car’s precision and composure on smooth roads.
Presently, I am considering fitting anti bumpsteer toe-control arms to the back. What puts me off is that all such products use spherical rod-end bearings both ends and I am wary from experience of using these on a road car (I had to replace them yearly at mandatory annual road safety ‘MoT’ test).
Some of these arms also look badly engineered – and not the cheapest ones either – and there are many reports of catastrophic failure, possibly by bad design (e.g. welded instead of forged bearing mounts(?)) but also sometimes caused by incorrect installation resulting in fatigue and fracture of the rod-end.
A design based upon the production arm – with rubber bush at the inner and conventional track-rod ball-joint at the outer so perhaps better for a road car – was marketed but the company ceased trading.
If someone has some advice on the above, I would be grateful.
Additional information:
I have not tracked or raced the car but would be interested in some kind of time-attack event, road-going class.
A couple of observations:
1. I am astonished to read in foregoing posts that there are people – none here I trust – who regard letting go of the steering wheel to let it self-centre as a ‘driving technique’!
2. The S2000 is often criticised for lack of steering feel and the electric rack is blamed. I have not found this a problem; it is better, IME, than most front drive cars (as one would expect) and as good as most cars I have had since power steering became commonplace. Further, as the car does not understeer much, there may not be a lot to feel. Is seems people are looking for a problem that doesn’t exist.
About me: 54 years old, had more rear-drive than front-drive, did some sprints, slaloms & grass Autotests and special stage rallying as co-driver - all a long time ago. Professionally, an automotive development engineer (powertrain), spent many years working on cars as a hobbyist.
My S2000 (Early 2006 UK market, so F20c with facelift body & 17” wheels, standard suspension and geometry set, standard size OE spec RE050s on front, non-OE RE050s on back) handles as described and I am fine with that, just how I like it – as long as the road (or track) is smooth and flat.
What is discussed less often, and what I like less about the car, is where the road is undulating and bumpy (very common in most parts of Britain):
Then, even on the straights, it takes some concentration to drive quickly (not recklessly fast) due, I believe to varying rear toe with suspension travel.
On twisting roads, with the car unweighting and compressing its suspension, one can feel the transition of the outside rear wheel from toe-in to out and back in. At the very least it gives one more work to do, more often one drives slower and with less commitment than should be possible and it is out of character with the car’s precision and composure on smooth roads.
Presently, I am considering fitting anti bumpsteer toe-control arms to the back. What puts me off is that all such products use spherical rod-end bearings both ends and I am wary from experience of using these on a road car (I had to replace them yearly at mandatory annual road safety ‘MoT’ test).
Some of these arms also look badly engineered – and not the cheapest ones either – and there are many reports of catastrophic failure, possibly by bad design (e.g. welded instead of forged bearing mounts(?)) but also sometimes caused by incorrect installation resulting in fatigue and fracture of the rod-end.
A design based upon the production arm – with rubber bush at the inner and conventional track-rod ball-joint at the outer so perhaps better for a road car – was marketed but the company ceased trading.
If someone has some advice on the above, I would be grateful.
Additional information:
I have not tracked or raced the car but would be interested in some kind of time-attack event, road-going class.
A couple of observations:
1. I am astonished to read in foregoing posts that there are people – none here I trust – who regard letting go of the steering wheel to let it self-centre as a ‘driving technique’!
2. The S2000 is often criticised for lack of steering feel and the electric rack is blamed. I have not found this a problem; it is better, IME, than most front drive cars (as one would expect) and as good as most cars I have had since power steering became commonplace. Further, as the car does not understeer much, there may not be a lot to feel. Is seems people are looking for a problem that doesn’t exist.
as far as advice, i ran the J's Racing rear toe arms. the result was that over these bumps, the toe change was COMPLETELY GONE. the car was as stable as I can possibly imagine over these same bumps that used to unsettle the car so easily. car became absolutely stable over these bumps. there is a SLIGHTLY noticeable difference in entering a corner whereby the car doesn't carve into the turn as sharply anymore, there is some additional slop but hardly noticeable.
regarding the replacement of the links on both ends, they do wear out in less than a year, HOWEVER, there are rubber covers that you can purchase that wrap around these links, keeping dirt and debris out. with these rubber covers, the links on both ends lasted me a good 4-5 years before I had to replace the links.
in the end, because of the issue you describe about failed endlinks, I decided not to take that chance and return to the oem toe arms. I would have probably been fine with the J's Racing build quality, but I just didn't want to take any risk at all, especially since someone confirmed that their friend had a J's Racing endlink fail on them. So I went back to the oem control arms, BUT at the same time I also upgraded to the ap2 17" wheels with 255 tires at the rear, running Sumitomo HTR III, and at the same time I installed Swift springs. I've had a swift front sway bar the entire time. I'll tell you, the snap oversteer problem and the toe change problem over bumps became a NON-ISSUE probably due to the stiff springs and the wider rear tires. Completely different car this way. It's not as stable as having the J's Racing control arms, but the liveliness in corner carving has returned but now it's more controllable and predictable (again probably due to the stiffer springs resulting in less suspension travel, and also the 255's help a lot too I'm sure).
hope this helps you.
09-11-2016, 01:38 AM
#140