Short block replacement thread.
01-02-2005, 06:21 AM
#221
Interesting theory, Rylan, Gernby. It'll be good to know Davepk's results.
Sorry to hear it, Matthew. You should definitely get the engine number for Barry's stats here. Open the hood and look on the right side (your right, that is) of the engine, below the valve covers. The number is etched in aluminum, facing up. You should also ask Honda specifically what they found and what they're replacing.
Given your car was bought in October, it probably had the new oil bolts, but you can only tell from the engine number -- perhaps your car was sitting on the dealer's lot for a while.
Did your dealer do a valve adjustment at 25K when you had the sound?
Good luck.
Sorry to hear it, Matthew. You should definitely get the engine number for Barry's stats here. Open the hood and look on the right side (your right, that is) of the engine, below the valve covers. The number is etched in aluminum, facing up. You should also ask Honda specifically what they found and what they're replacing.
Given your car was bought in October, it probably had the new oil bolts, but you can only tell from the engine number -- perhaps your car was sitting on the dealer's lot for a while.
Did your dealer do a valve adjustment at 25K when you had the sound?
Good luck.
01-02-2005, 07:46 AM
#222
Since this is a subject that keeps raising it's ugly head, I thought I would provide a condensed but still rather long history based on notes I've kept (and just cleaned up) of what we know so far:
#4 Cylinder Failures (including redesigned Banjo Oil Jet Bolt and revised Oil Pump:
A small number of owners, approximately four dozen are known, report major engine failure due to the #4 Cylinder Scoring. If you hear a very distinct tapping noise that you have not heard before - beware. It can be heard from the driver
#4 Cylinder Failures (including redesigned Banjo Oil Jet Bolt and revised Oil Pump:
A small number of owners, approximately four dozen are known, report major engine failure due to the #4 Cylinder Scoring. If you hear a very distinct tapping noise that you have not heard before - beware. It can be heard from the driver
01-02-2005, 08:08 AM
#223
Thanks for the summary. Those of us that have not had any serious problems are happy that the car is running well. However, if one of us did develop an issue and had to have major engine work done I would like to see Honda issue a TSB to make any updates that have been added to later models as long as the dealer is in there making repairs anyway.
You mention that the problem tends to occur if the engine is subjected to long term extreme loading, are there cases where this failure occurs on an engine that has only seen normal street driving (no track time)?
You mention that the problem tends to occur if the engine is subjected to long term extreme loading, are there cases where this failure occurs on an engine that has only seen normal street driving (no track time)?
02-15-2005, 12:52 PM
#224
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Dudes and Dudettes.....as applipicable,
Long time reader, first time poster....
Just a short bit of information on yet another cylinder #4 failure that occurred on my MY'03 with 8,165 miles, the failure happened on 25 Novermber, 2004. From reading the enormous amount of information here at S2KI, I'll keep things simple and say that my engine failure was typical...tic..tic..tic, followed by a severe loss of power.....missing....and ultimately having the automobile towed to the dealer. At no time did the oil pressure light or "check engine" light EVER come on.
My automobile had been carefully maintained by the dealer where I purchased it, including an oil change at a bit less than 4,000 miles. This automobile was broken in per the owners manual, never exhibited ANY excessive use of oil, and was driven conservatively.
The service advisor told me not to worry as the car was still virtualy new and that whatever was wrong would be taken care of under warranty. he called me back in a few days and asked for my permission to tear the engind down to verify that no internal after-market components were in the engine, as there wern't any, I gave my permission.
A few days later he called me back again and informed me that his "expert S2000 Technician" needed to put 5 quarts of oil into the engine to bring it up to the proper fill level. Needless to say I was a bit confused as in the two years that I had been driving this automobile it had never exhibited any major oil loss. He asked me if I checked the oil everytime I filled it with fuel, and I told him that because I didn't drive it all that much that I checked it on a monthly basis. He said that the owners manual clearly states that the engine oil should be checked every time the automobile is filled with fuel. I could already see the direction this was going.
The service advisor said that the Regional Service Manager would be reviewing the technicians findings and that he'd get back to me in a couple of days.
When he finally called me back he told me that the RSM was denying the warranty replacement of my engine due to my negligence. I was pissed!!! He the referred me to American Honda Custome Service to make a claim and have the decision reversed. Again, the Service Advisor told me not to worry and that Customer Service would straighten everything out. I filed a claim and spoke to my "Case Manager" on a number of occassions. Finally he told me that the RSM's decision would stand and that the bill would be in excess of $12K. I questioned my Case Manager about the oil pressure sensor, it's specification, and calibration. he was unable to get any useful information. I asked him how it was possible that the oil pressure light never illuminated under the conditions that Honda claimed my engine was. He asked me for a day or two to review my file. When he called me back he told me that American Honda was now willing to offer to split 50/50, the warranty replacement cost of approximately $8,700 (around $4,400 out of my pocket.) I told him that I'd think about it, and decided that it was time to get my big bucks L.A. attorney to take over.
Armed with pages of information from this, and other S2000 websites,my attorney wrote American Honda Motors a nice letter outlining the details of my claim, and referring to the numerous documented failures in the past as proof of the engineering/manufacturing defect. American Honda Motors never offically responded to my attorney's letter, but I was told verbially when I called my Case Manager to see what was up that that American Honda Motors was not going to change their mind.
I was then forced to contact the Berrer Business Bureau and filed a claim against American Honda Motors and the dealership. I had an arbitration with a contract representative of American Honda Motors on Friday, 4 February 2005 and won. American Honda Motors was told to replace the engine, oil pressure light, and engine warning light. The unfortunate thing is what Honda's representative said during the arbitration, 1) That American Honda Motors is not aware of any cylinder 4 failures in S2000 automobiles 2) That American Honda Motors is not aware of any outstanding lawsuits regarding oil related failures and subsequent refusal to honor warranty repairs 3) That because my automobile had a stainless steel aftermarket exhaust system that it showed that I was likely to drive my automobile in a way to cause the failure, 4) That the intake system of my car had been modified (which it had not, and was completely stock.) What he did say that sealed the deal with the arbitrator was that an automobile manufacturer would replace any engine that used more than one (1) quart of oil per 1,000 miles, he said this was an industry standard. In my case, my engine had a little more than 4,000 miles since my first dealer performed and documented oil change, so the math was easy for the arbitrator to make her decision. But the bottom line is that Honda's representative did not acknowledge how prolific these failures are, and then took to making things up to bolster his case against me.
In closing I want any other members reading this saga who have problems in the future to note that my case has been well documented with Honda, and the Better Business Bureau. I will be happy to offer my assistance to help any other members with similar issues. During this many month long process I have become so disappointed with Honda's Customer service procedures that I wrote a letter to Takeo Fukui, President and CEO of Honda Motor Corporation, Ltd. in Japan. I await his reply.
Long time reader, first time poster....
Just a short bit of information on yet another cylinder #4 failure that occurred on my MY'03 with 8,165 miles, the failure happened on 25 Novermber, 2004. From reading the enormous amount of information here at S2KI, I'll keep things simple and say that my engine failure was typical...tic..tic..tic, followed by a severe loss of power.....missing....and ultimately having the automobile towed to the dealer. At no time did the oil pressure light or "check engine" light EVER come on.
My automobile had been carefully maintained by the dealer where I purchased it, including an oil change at a bit less than 4,000 miles. This automobile was broken in per the owners manual, never exhibited ANY excessive use of oil, and was driven conservatively.
The service advisor told me not to worry as the car was still virtualy new and that whatever was wrong would be taken care of under warranty. he called me back in a few days and asked for my permission to tear the engind down to verify that no internal after-market components were in the engine, as there wern't any, I gave my permission.
A few days later he called me back again and informed me that his "expert S2000 Technician" needed to put 5 quarts of oil into the engine to bring it up to the proper fill level. Needless to say I was a bit confused as in the two years that I had been driving this automobile it had never exhibited any major oil loss. He asked me if I checked the oil everytime I filled it with fuel, and I told him that because I didn't drive it all that much that I checked it on a monthly basis. He said that the owners manual clearly states that the engine oil should be checked every time the automobile is filled with fuel. I could already see the direction this was going.
The service advisor said that the Regional Service Manager would be reviewing the technicians findings and that he'd get back to me in a couple of days.
When he finally called me back he told me that the RSM was denying the warranty replacement of my engine due to my negligence. I was pissed!!! He the referred me to American Honda Custome Service to make a claim and have the decision reversed. Again, the Service Advisor told me not to worry and that Customer Service would straighten everything out. I filed a claim and spoke to my "Case Manager" on a number of occassions. Finally he told me that the RSM's decision would stand and that the bill would be in excess of $12K. I questioned my Case Manager about the oil pressure sensor, it's specification, and calibration. he was unable to get any useful information. I asked him how it was possible that the oil pressure light never illuminated under the conditions that Honda claimed my engine was. He asked me for a day or two to review my file. When he called me back he told me that American Honda was now willing to offer to split 50/50, the warranty replacement cost of approximately $8,700 (around $4,400 out of my pocket.) I told him that I'd think about it, and decided that it was time to get my big bucks L.A. attorney to take over.
Armed with pages of information from this, and other S2000 websites,my attorney wrote American Honda Motors a nice letter outlining the details of my claim, and referring to the numerous documented failures in the past as proof of the engineering/manufacturing defect. American Honda Motors never offically responded to my attorney's letter, but I was told verbially when I called my Case Manager to see what was up that that American Honda Motors was not going to change their mind.
I was then forced to contact the Berrer Business Bureau and filed a claim against American Honda Motors and the dealership. I had an arbitration with a contract representative of American Honda Motors on Friday, 4 February 2005 and won. American Honda Motors was told to replace the engine, oil pressure light, and engine warning light. The unfortunate thing is what Honda's representative said during the arbitration, 1) That American Honda Motors is not aware of any cylinder 4 failures in S2000 automobiles 2) That American Honda Motors is not aware of any outstanding lawsuits regarding oil related failures and subsequent refusal to honor warranty repairs 3) That because my automobile had a stainless steel aftermarket exhaust system that it showed that I was likely to drive my automobile in a way to cause the failure, 4) That the intake system of my car had been modified (which it had not, and was completely stock.) What he did say that sealed the deal with the arbitrator was that an automobile manufacturer would replace any engine that used more than one (1) quart of oil per 1,000 miles, he said this was an industry standard. In my case, my engine had a little more than 4,000 miles since my first dealer performed and documented oil change, so the math was easy for the arbitrator to make her decision. But the bottom line is that Honda's representative did not acknowledge how prolific these failures are, and then took to making things up to bolster his case against me.
In closing I want any other members reading this saga who have problems in the future to note that my case has been well documented with Honda, and the Better Business Bureau. I will be happy to offer my assistance to help any other members with similar issues. During this many month long process I have become so disappointed with Honda's Customer service procedures that I wrote a letter to Takeo Fukui, President and CEO of Honda Motor Corporation, Ltd. in Japan. I await his reply.
02-15-2005, 04:33 PM
#225
Sorry to read this, blueyz... Hope your S comes back to you in primo condition. Please note: the oil pressure light is *not* an oil reservoir level light. As I suggested earlier in this thread, Honda really should've put an oil level gauge in the cluster because the car burns oil notoriously.
I don't know how your motor could've been down 5 quarts though -- something sounds fishy. Maybe you did a lot of driving that month without checking it. Who knows? Still, 5 quarts down seems almost impossible in a month's time unless you were tracking the car.
Anyway, sounds like you won the war. Best of luck.
I don't know how your motor could've been down 5 quarts though -- something sounds fishy. Maybe you did a lot of driving that month without checking it. Who knows? Still, 5 quarts down seems almost impossible in a month's time unless you were tracking the car.
Anyway, sounds like you won the war. Best of luck.
02-15-2005, 09:19 PM
#226
blueyz,
What bull shit. If I were to have a similar incident with Honda I would be ready to shove the car up their ass. I don't understand how they can replace one person's engine without anything but kindness and the next time run people through the ringer. My car has always been a high oil consumption engine - one quart every 1800 miles on average. I do check the oil with every fillup but I have yet to see a pattern on why it varies as much as it does; lowest was 1500 miles, highest 3100 miles. I can tell you it does not follow popular logic that the more you VETC the more you use. Not with my car. I really love this car but I am sick of hearing stories such as yours. Frankly, I would never own another Honda based on the poor customer service record that I have heard about through this site.
What bull shit. If I were to have a similar incident with Honda I would be ready to shove the car up their ass. I don't understand how they can replace one person's engine without anything but kindness and the next time run people through the ringer. My car has always been a high oil consumption engine - one quart every 1800 miles on average. I do check the oil with every fillup but I have yet to see a pattern on why it varies as much as it does; lowest was 1500 miles, highest 3100 miles. I can tell you it does not follow popular logic that the more you VETC the more you use. Not with my car. I really love this car but I am sick of hearing stories such as yours. Frankly, I would never own another Honda based on the poor customer service record that I have heard about through this site.
02-17-2005, 01:34 PM
#227
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I'll never buy another honda ANYTHING! Car, lawn mower, generator, motorcycle, boat engine or chain saw. If it has a honda part in it they can keep it. After the royal screwing I took at the hands of the liars the run the service "system" at AHM.
03-10-2005, 04:11 PM
#229
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Figured I'd add to this thread.....just got done pulling the pan on an 02, engine #1023992.....#4 cylinder is scored to hell on both sides, the other three are absolutely spotless. I removed the pan for a loud tapping sound.
Oil level on top X, Oil change with PCX filter and Mobil1 3 weeks ago...
Oil level on top X, Oil change with PCX filter and Mobil1 3 weeks ago...
03-10-2005, 05:23 PM
#230
Originally Posted by billman250,Mar 10 2005, 09:11 PM
Figured I'd add to this thread.....just got done pulling the pan on an 02, engine #1023992.....#4 cylinder is scored to hell on the drivers side, the other three are absolutely spotless. I removed the pan for a loud tapping sound.
Oil level on top X, Oil change with PCX filter and Mobil1 3 weeks ago...
Oil level on top X, Oil change with PCX filter and Mobil1 3 weeks ago...
Barry, it is a shame that people will not provide their VIN#