S2000 Marketing - the biggest lie in the auto world since...
03-04-2002, 04:40 PM
#31
I've posted this before, but here it is again:
This quote is from one of the very earliest stories on the car. It's dated October 1999, entitled DRIVING IMPRESSION OF THE S2000
By Larry Edsall for AUTO WEEK.
"Honda plans only one generation, which means 12,000 vehicles a year for maybe four to six years. Of those 12,000 units, 5000 will be sold through American Honda dealers."
You can see where the 5,000 number came from.
This quote is from one of the very earliest stories on the car. It's dated October 1999, entitled DRIVING IMPRESSION OF THE S2000
By Larry Edsall for AUTO WEEK.
"Honda plans only one generation, which means 12,000 vehicles a year for maybe four to six years. Of those 12,000 units, 5000 will be sold through American Honda dealers."
You can see where the 5,000 number came from.
03-04-2002, 05:20 PM
#32
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve2K
[B]I wonder when there has been a bigger marketing lie in the automotive world than the S2000?
5,000 per year for only 2 years in the U.S....
They went well beyond 5,000 and are on their way well beyond 2 years
Ahem, pardon my rant, but I for one am glad that they are selling a substantial quantity. I just traded in a '93 RX-7 3rd gen (twin turbo), which I had loved for 121,000 miles. To be more succinct, I had loved it except for the aggravation and the anxiety. They sold roughly 6000 in 1993, 3000 in 1994 and 1000 in 1995. They stopped making them, because of lack of demand. The car was an incredible rocket, and critically very well acclaimed, but it had become well nigh impossible to get competent servicing because of extreme scarcity. It was certainly no sort of car for a shade tree mechanic either, given the extremely complex controls associated with the elaborate induction and fuel feed systems and progressive low rpm/high rpm turbos.
No sir, I for one am glad that there will be a few tens of thousands of S2000's out there when the production line finally grinds to a halt. There will be lots of Honda dealers with lots of mechanics and parts, and probably a fair number of independent shops who will be able to keep my car running, even if it breaks down while I am visiting East Oshkosh.
[B]I wonder when there has been a bigger marketing lie in the automotive world than the S2000?
5,000 per year for only 2 years in the U.S....
They went well beyond 5,000 and are on their way well beyond 2 years
Ahem, pardon my rant, but I for one am glad that they are selling a substantial quantity. I just traded in a '93 RX-7 3rd gen (twin turbo), which I had loved for 121,000 miles. To be more succinct, I had loved it except for the aggravation and the anxiety. They sold roughly 6000 in 1993, 3000 in 1994 and 1000 in 1995. They stopped making them, because of lack of demand. The car was an incredible rocket, and critically very well acclaimed, but it had become well nigh impossible to get competent servicing because of extreme scarcity. It was certainly no sort of car for a shade tree mechanic either, given the extremely complex controls associated with the elaborate induction and fuel feed systems and progressive low rpm/high rpm turbos.
No sir, I for one am glad that there will be a few tens of thousands of S2000's out there when the production line finally grinds to a halt. There will be lots of Honda dealers with lots of mechanics and parts, and probably a fair number of independent shops who will be able to keep my car running, even if it breaks down while I am visiting East Oshkosh.
03-04-2002, 05:21 PM
#33
I don't think anybody questions the 5,000 number, but keep in mind a few key points:
1) Honda didn't use this information to market the car....the media and dealers are the ones that hyped it
2) the word "plan" is important. Even if they did market it as did the media/dealers, the word implies that they have a right to change production levels. A plan does not constitute a commitment.
3) Honda cannot legally control their dealers' pricing and marketing...they are indepently owned and managed businesses, and to do so would be a restraint of trade.
4) The customers who paid the markups are the ones who created the situation. Demand greatly exceeded supply, thus prices rose to balance the two. If those who are upset about paying markups would have been patient, they could have been avoided.
5) Honda did not profit off of the dealers' sales tactics and markups. They don't share in the incremental margin, and could argue that the dealers impaired Honda's brand equity.
So maybe the dealers screwed up? Quite likely, but there goes your class action suit...it would then be individual actions arising from the many transactions in question. There go your lawyer(s) w/ big $$$ in their eyes willing to work on a contingency basis, as ((40% of a 4 figure claim * the probability of success) discounted for the future value depending on settlement date) isn't going to get many decent lawyers very excited. Another thing to consider is that any misrepresentations were likely to be oral, and several years' passage could make recollections fuzzy. Also, did the sales contract specify that all T'c & C's must be in writing? A good contract will include such a provision.
I hope anyone who pursues remedies against Honda Motor Co. &/or AHM gets fined for frivolous litigation. All they've done is produce an incredible car for us at a bargain basement price (possibly below their cost, including amortized R&D). I agree, however, that a high % of their dealers suck!
1) Honda didn't use this information to market the car....the media and dealers are the ones that hyped it
2) the word "plan" is important. Even if they did market it as did the media/dealers, the word implies that they have a right to change production levels. A plan does not constitute a commitment.
3) Honda cannot legally control their dealers' pricing and marketing...they are indepently owned and managed businesses, and to do so would be a restraint of trade.
4) The customers who paid the markups are the ones who created the situation. Demand greatly exceeded supply, thus prices rose to balance the two. If those who are upset about paying markups would have been patient, they could have been avoided.
5) Honda did not profit off of the dealers' sales tactics and markups. They don't share in the incremental margin, and could argue that the dealers impaired Honda's brand equity.
So maybe the dealers screwed up? Quite likely, but there goes your class action suit...it would then be individual actions arising from the many transactions in question. There go your lawyer(s) w/ big $$$ in their eyes willing to work on a contingency basis, as ((40% of a 4 figure claim * the probability of success) discounted for the future value depending on settlement date) isn't going to get many decent lawyers very excited. Another thing to consider is that any misrepresentations were likely to be oral, and several years' passage could make recollections fuzzy. Also, did the sales contract specify that all T'c & C's must be in writing? A good contract will include such a provision.
I hope anyone who pursues remedies against Honda Motor Co. &/or AHM gets fined for frivolous litigation. All they've done is produce an incredible car for us at a bargain basement price (possibly below their cost, including amortized R&D). I agree, however, that a high % of their dealers suck!
03-05-2002, 07:14 AM
#37
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When I bought my S2000 in 1999, I paid $1500 over MSRP for several reasons. I had read and was told by the dealer that only 5000 would available in the U.S. each year. I wanted to get one of the first ones and I wanted a low serial number. I was not on a waiting list and I was lucky to find this one at all (the individual that it was reserved for could not get a loan). Compared with what others were paying at that time, I thought that I got a good deal.
By now everyone (dealers, customers and press) should know that Honda makes its sales figures public at:
http://www.hondacars.com/news/attachments....ml?y=2002&r=770
When I was getting my Accord serviced last month at a Honda dealer (not the one that I bought my S2000 from) I asked one of the salesmen why they never had any S2000s for sale. He said that Honda would only send them one each month, and they were always sold before they arrived. He thought that the reason that they only received one each month was because Honda only imports 5000 to the U.S. each year. He was not lying to me to make a sale, he was simply confused like many others have been.
By now everyone (dealers, customers and press) should know that Honda makes its sales figures public at:
http://www.hondacars.com/news/attachments....ml?y=2002&r=770
When I was getting my Accord serviced last month at a Honda dealer (not the one that I bought my S2000 from) I asked one of the salesmen why they never had any S2000s for sale. He said that Honda would only send them one each month, and they were always sold before they arrived. He thought that the reason that they only received one each month was because Honda only imports 5000 to the U.S. each year. He was not lying to me to make a sale, he was simply confused like many others have been.
03-05-2002, 08:19 AM
#38
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Wooo... my first post.
I'm currently working on purchasing an S2000 and working through 2 dealers. Their talk is that they get a limited quantity of S2000's based on their sales from prior years. I heard the "as soon as it comes in, they sell it that day."
Of course I don't buy it. I got the "Bring in your downpayment and I'll reserve it for you when it comes in April" stuff. It's quite amusing.
Why the heck would anyone pay over MSRP? When it first came out, I can see it since at that time, I remember hearing they wouldn't make very many and it would be ceased in 2002. With the internet, it's so easy to call hundreds of dealers and get the car you want, under invoice. My hope is (once my lease runs out on my current car), I'll get the color pattern I want and spend a day calling from Indy out to get what I want, then drive to pick it up
I'm currently working on purchasing an S2000 and working through 2 dealers. Their talk is that they get a limited quantity of S2000's based on their sales from prior years. I heard the "as soon as it comes in, they sell it that day."
Of course I don't buy it. I got the "Bring in your downpayment and I'll reserve it for you when it comes in April" stuff. It's quite amusing.
Why the heck would anyone pay over MSRP? When it first came out, I can see it since at that time, I remember hearing they wouldn't make very many and it would be ceased in 2002. With the internet, it's so easy to call hundreds of dealers and get the car you want, under invoice. My hope is (once my lease runs out on my current car), I'll get the color pattern I want and spend a day calling from Indy out to get what I want, then drive to pick it up
03-05-2002, 09:55 AM
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it's my belief now, as then, that the buyer sets the price - even this year, i was told there'd be a markup on my '02, and i just chose to say "i don't think so." and went elsewhere. from what i've gathered, honda's original plan WAS to limit production to 5000/year. it's still (at least around here) a fairly rare car to see on the road. but honda is completely entitled to say "hey we got great reviews, people love it, let's build more of 'em!" even in the first year of production, i've heard stories of people who held out for a proper price. but those of you who chose to pay more (no criticism intended), did so, and justified any future price gouging. so many of you did it that the dealers said, 'wow we can get away with this - something we've never really been able to do with a Honda!' and so they did it. i know MSRP deals were /very/ hard to come by early on, but they existed. they're around now, and so are gouged deals. the place i told 'i don't think so' just sold one to a customer of mine for $36000. MSRP is just that. Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail Price. not mandated retail price. is it bad business for dealers? yeah. does it make AHM look bad? yeah. are people still paying way too much? yeah. is a lawsuit justified stemming from free-market sales? hell no. anyone who voluntarily paid over MSRP did so voluntarily. no one twisted your arm, threatened you, made you sign in blood. you did, and most of you are happy with your purchase. if the lawyer just wanted to 'point out something' to the public, it'd be a pro bono case. ask him to sacrifice his potential earnings back to the 'ripped off' consumers. see what he says then. if you feel that badly about it, trade yours in and get a fair deal on a new one.
