MAJOR S2000 Problems!
06-27-2001, 02:16 PM
#81
Txst - thanks for clarifying the Six Sigma - I will point out that it is 3.4 defects per million parts, not billion, though. I only got a bit of the Six Sigma info and couldn't remember the exact defining points of it. You are also right about the fact that toyota and honda (and a few others) meet that level frequently.
But let's say for argument's sake, that both the accord and S2000 have about 5000 parts.
US Accord = 250000 units * 5000 parts = 1.250.000.000 total parts
US S2000 = 5000 units * 5000 parts = 25.000.000 total parts
Six Sigma means that 85 S2000 parts will be defective and 4250 Accord parts will be defective. And you can really only analyze these failure rates if you actually A LOT OF A GIVEN PART, anything else is extrapolation - which adds margin of error and so on. How many parts on an S2000 are made in any significant quantity?
I can guarantee those 85 S2000 owners will be more vocal then the 4250 Accord owners, and that Honda and their dealers will be far better at dealing with the Accord issue(s). The accord is also a constant work in progress that is worked on my hundreds and hundreds of engineers and technicians year round. Also, there are maybe 500-1000 actual posters here, and a lot of visitors that register but never say anything (over 800 have 0 posts). So do we assume that because 25 people out of those 500-100 have a problem, that the same percentage of non-posters have a problem? Has anyone ever heard the business slogan "A happy customer tells 1 person, an unhappy customer tells 10"? Same thing applies.
I don't for a second claim that the S2000 is 'bulletproof' like the accords, but I bet if I drove an Accord like I drive my S2000, I'd find a lot of problems in the Accord that most don't. Look at the failure rate of Indy or F1 car parts if you don't see what I mean.
But let's say for argument's sake, that both the accord and S2000 have about 5000 parts.
US Accord = 250000 units * 5000 parts = 1.250.000.000 total parts
US S2000 = 5000 units * 5000 parts = 25.000.000 total parts
Six Sigma means that 85 S2000 parts will be defective and 4250 Accord parts will be defective. And you can really only analyze these failure rates if you actually A LOT OF A GIVEN PART, anything else is extrapolation - which adds margin of error and so on. How many parts on an S2000 are made in any significant quantity?
I can guarantee those 85 S2000 owners will be more vocal then the 4250 Accord owners, and that Honda and their dealers will be far better at dealing with the Accord issue(s). The accord is also a constant work in progress that is worked on my hundreds and hundreds of engineers and technicians year round. Also, there are maybe 500-1000 actual posters here, and a lot of visitors that register but never say anything (over 800 have 0 posts). So do we assume that because 25 people out of those 500-100 have a problem, that the same percentage of non-posters have a problem? Has anyone ever heard the business slogan "A happy customer tells 1 person, an unhappy customer tells 10"? Same thing applies.
I don't for a second claim that the S2000 is 'bulletproof' like the accords, but I bet if I drove an Accord like I drive my S2000, I'd find a lot of problems in the Accord that most don't. Look at the failure rate of Indy or F1 car parts if you don't see what I mean.
06-27-2001, 02:29 PM
#82
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by WestSideBilly
I don't for a second claim that the S2000 is 'bulletproof' like the accords, but I bet if I drove an Accord like I drive my S2000, I'd find a lot of problems in the Accord that most don't.
I don't for a second claim that the S2000 is 'bulletproof' like the accords, but I bet if I drove an Accord like I drive my S2000, I'd find a lot of problems in the Accord that most don't.
06-27-2001, 02:45 PM
#84
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DallasEngineer
[B]
Well, that's true, HOWEVER, Honda ALLOWED thier dealers to sell these cars at a premium AND, had I have know that this car had this many bugs, I would not have agreed to pay a premium.
[B]
Well, that's true, HOWEVER, Honda ALLOWED thier dealers to sell these cars at a premium AND, had I have know that this car had this many bugs, I would not have agreed to pay a premium.
06-27-2001, 02:50 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by johev
[B]No problem....no apology necessary....I shouldn't have gotten so worked up about it!
That was one of the things that actually sold me on the car, that and the statement that "were only making this one or 2 years, and we're only making about 2000 a year"
[B]No problem....no apology necessary....I shouldn't have gotten so worked up about it!
That was one of the things that actually sold me on the car, that and the statement that "were only making this one or 2 years, and we're only making about 2000 a year"
06-27-2001, 02:54 PM
#86
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still waiting to hear if you took it to another dealership or shop to look at.
regardless of the outcome, not every dealership can please everyone in service with any particular given car.
if you ever looked at other hand built cars, lets go to an extreme here - the Ferrari cars - pick one, and I can tell you that there are more issues with it than you could imagine, but thing is, the owners and even myself love those things because they work on them constantly. this is not to say that the S is anywhere near "high-maintenance" but it is saying that there are issues with 'high performance cars', more so than a typical 'accord' on the road.
if you feel the car is going to shits, then at least take it up to 9K and hit the rev limiter a few times before you rid yourself of the car and replace it - at least for me, that would justify any problems that I might have in the future. Its a great sound and a great experience.
and thanks WestSideBilly, good response regarding the %'s and how the dealer can handle accord issues well.
regardless of the outcome, not every dealership can please everyone in service with any particular given car.
if you ever looked at other hand built cars, lets go to an extreme here - the Ferrari cars - pick one, and I can tell you that there are more issues with it than you could imagine, but thing is, the owners and even myself love those things because they work on them constantly. this is not to say that the S is anywhere near "high-maintenance" but it is saying that there are issues with 'high performance cars', more so than a typical 'accord' on the road.
if you feel the car is going to shits, then at least take it up to 9K and hit the rev limiter a few times before you rid yourself of the car and replace it - at least for me, that would justify any problems that I might have in the future. Its a great sound and a great experience.
and thanks WestSideBilly, good response regarding the %'s and how the dealer can handle accord issues well.
06-27-2001, 03:01 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris S
[B]
Honda does not allow their dealers to sell @ any price, b/c they're independent businesses and doing so would constitute a restraint of trade.
[B]
Honda does not allow their dealers to sell @ any price, b/c they're independent businesses and doing so would constitute a restraint of trade.
06-27-2001, 03:30 PM
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I've had trouble as well Dallas, the grind, the clutch, and now it's sounding like the CV is clicking... I love the car, but it's not going to be one I keep forever like I had once thought it would be, end of summer I'll probably be parting with it for a mundane car that has higher build quality.
Additional annoyances are a rattle from where the top goes down on the driver side, the auto down driver window doesnt always work (this was already repaired/replaced once), and rattling from the passenger side top when it's up.. I'm not bashing the car, it's a great car, just has a lot of imperfections I wasn't expecting when I paid a premium for a car with so few ameneties.
Additional annoyances are a rattle from where the top goes down on the driver side, the auto down driver window doesnt always work (this was already repaired/replaced once), and rattling from the passenger side top when it's up.. I'm not bashing the car, it's a great car, just has a lot of imperfections I wasn't expecting when I paid a premium for a car with so few ameneties.