How many of you had accidents in RAIN cuz of s2000?
05-27-2001, 12:50 PM
#11
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Originally posted by Frank
....I think the problem most of us run into is that our limits are SO HIGH in the dry, that we lose perspective of the limits in the wet, when in reality they are still quite good...
....I think the problem most of us run into is that our limits are SO HIGH in the dry, that we lose perspective of the limits in the wet, when in reality they are still quite good...
If you haven't experience driving in the wet with an engine which suddenly goes into a higher torque range suddenly(i.e., with a turbo or VTEC) and learn how to "sqeeze" the throttle; you can have a problem.
I took off my front bumper that way. And I know what to do, but I found it unexpectably, just like the guys today in the 500 that found the white line, or experienced a cold tire start --- and they wrecked and they know better. Don't blame the car, blame your own inexperience.
05-27-2001, 01:02 PM
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I agree. There is nothing in the S2000's design to make it inherently unstable in the rain.
I believe that it comes down to the following factors:
1) Poor driving skill and judgement.
2) Driving on worn tires with no tread to channel the water out.
My advice would be to:
1) Learn how to properly drive a RWD sports car, including skid and spin recovery.
2) Practice proper maintenance, including observation of tire wear rates.
If you want to feel safer, or you are constantly driving in cold, wet conditions, a change in tire to perhaps something like the SP9000 or S-03 would help.
In temperatures below 40F, I would recommend the installation of a proper winter tire as well.
I believe that it comes down to the following factors:
1) Poor driving skill and judgement.
2) Driving on worn tires with no tread to channel the water out.
My advice would be to:
1) Learn how to properly drive a RWD sports car, including skid and spin recovery.
2) Practice proper maintenance, including observation of tire wear rates.
If you want to feel safer, or you are constantly driving in cold, wet conditions, a change in tire to perhaps something like the SP9000 or S-03 would help.
In temperatures below 40F, I would recommend the installation of a proper winter tire as well.
05-27-2001, 01:20 PM
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Hey, thanks for the posts everyone! I actually feel much better. However, there is one thing _I_ should probably look into--driving a RWD high performance sports car. I've NEVER owned a car like the S2000 before. My current car is a Ford Explorer and my previous car was a Acura Integra, which I believe was front wheel drive.
So, anyone care to explain briefly the difference between driving a FWD car and a RWD car? Will it be hard for me to get used to and drive safely in bad conditions?
Thanks for the responses!
So, anyone care to explain briefly the difference between driving a FWD car and a RWD car? Will it be hard for me to get used to and drive safely in bad conditions?
Thanks for the responses!
05-27-2001, 01:29 PM
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Points above agreed with.....
Having put quite a few track miles and very spirited road miles myself on various high powered, rear wheel drive cars over the years (incl C5 Corvette, RX7 TT, M3, MR2), I have come to the conclusion that the "problems" encountered with the S2000 likely stem from areas including the following:
1. S2000 has a high peak power curve, coupled with a very short wheelbase and an LSD. Along with the power delivery, most people are simply not expeienced with an LSD and the way it makes the car behave, as well as the fact that the S2000, with it's short wheelbase, will have a higher tendency to swap ends very quickly when traction is lost.
2. Yes, the S02's are not great in the cold. They are a 'fair to good weather' tire and the rubber compound involved in their construction is what allows them to perform so well at speed in the dry. Unfortunately, in the cold and wet, this very same rubber compound is also why they seem to break away easily. An interesting point to consider is whether the S2000 preforms better in the wet with other tire brands and/or sizes, so I'd love to hear/read any stories.
3. Because the S2000 has a high peak power curve, you need to see some high revolutions to get the thing to 'move'. I think that once the car enters Vtec, the sudden increase in power that will cause the rear to step out in the wet is what catches drivers out. Some drivers, not used to this, are unsure as to what to do and can't react properly if the rear steps out in an oversteer situation. When this happens, a diver's first instinct will be to lift off the throttle and steer into the skid. However, as the S has such a short wheel base, it is prone to fishtail and snap back the other way if not caught correctly. Driver will then think that some power is needed and may panic. Likely that he/she will give too much power and enter vtec again, causing a massive delivery of wheelspin. Depending on where the car is, this may induce the spin further and hence, an unrecoverable off road excursion and at worst....an accident.
Most (new) S2000 drivers are simply not used to the power delivery of the car, let alone Vtec of any sort. It's a very different animal. They are likely used to front wheel drive cars, or rear wheel drive cars with more lower-end torque. The power delivery in these cars is more linear and easier to predict than the S2000's 'peaky' power delivery. Plus, understeer is easier to control and this is mostly what people experience.
Oversteer is a lot more 'mythical' in people's eyes and it's harder to react to. Understeer you usually lift off, or alternatively maintain throttle and hold the 'plow' line (slows you down though), but with o/s, there are many different techniques to utilize to get the car to go where you want it to. Unless you drive very agressively and/or spend lots of time on the track, every encounter with oversteer (be it power or trailing throttle) is different, and likely unpredictable.
I strongly believe that the S2000 is NOT the culprit here. Car's don't crash on their own. The tires 'may' have something to do with the situation and so might the road conditions, but I'd likely say that in most cases, it is driver error in the first place due to wrongfully reading road conditions and establishing appropriate vehicle speed and posture.
With the S2000, it is VERY easy to be going 10-20mph faster than you think you actually are, and this could be what is causing problems..Certainly, if the car is put into a situation of 'jeaopordy', the other factors of tyres and power delivery will definitely play a large influence - and may be the scapegoat when the story is recalled. You do feel like a bit of a hero in the S2000, so ego can also get a bit out of check by thinking that the car can handle everything you throw at it. No matter how good the S2000 is, it is still a car and it, as well as the driver, has limits. Certainly, the S2000 handles fantastically well in the dry, but in the wet (and/or cold), the car demands extra care.
I would not let any of the unfortunate experiences of any of the other S2000 owners dissuade you from enjoying such a fantastic and 'personable' car. You just need to remember that this little 2700-odd pound car is putting out 240+hp (200 at the wheels!!!) and has a very short wheelbase. With limited riding experience, you wouldn't just get onto a race horse and go hell for leather, you'd start out riding it slowly and getting a feel for it. But no matter how much you ride it, it could always rear and buck you off for so reason. S2000 is like that too...and that's the challenge that makes the car so enjoyable to drive!!!
Respect the car and it will respect you. It's that simple.
Jusy my $0.02. I welcome the feedback!
Cheers,
Having put quite a few track miles and very spirited road miles myself on various high powered, rear wheel drive cars over the years (incl C5 Corvette, RX7 TT, M3, MR2), I have come to the conclusion that the "problems" encountered with the S2000 likely stem from areas including the following:
1. S2000 has a high peak power curve, coupled with a very short wheelbase and an LSD. Along with the power delivery, most people are simply not expeienced with an LSD and the way it makes the car behave, as well as the fact that the S2000, with it's short wheelbase, will have a higher tendency to swap ends very quickly when traction is lost.
2. Yes, the S02's are not great in the cold. They are a 'fair to good weather' tire and the rubber compound involved in their construction is what allows them to perform so well at speed in the dry. Unfortunately, in the cold and wet, this very same rubber compound is also why they seem to break away easily. An interesting point to consider is whether the S2000 preforms better in the wet with other tire brands and/or sizes, so I'd love to hear/read any stories.
3. Because the S2000 has a high peak power curve, you need to see some high revolutions to get the thing to 'move'. I think that once the car enters Vtec, the sudden increase in power that will cause the rear to step out in the wet is what catches drivers out. Some drivers, not used to this, are unsure as to what to do and can't react properly if the rear steps out in an oversteer situation. When this happens, a diver's first instinct will be to lift off the throttle and steer into the skid. However, as the S has such a short wheel base, it is prone to fishtail and snap back the other way if not caught correctly. Driver will then think that some power is needed and may panic. Likely that he/she will give too much power and enter vtec again, causing a massive delivery of wheelspin. Depending on where the car is, this may induce the spin further and hence, an unrecoverable off road excursion and at worst....an accident.
Most (new) S2000 drivers are simply not used to the power delivery of the car, let alone Vtec of any sort. It's a very different animal. They are likely used to front wheel drive cars, or rear wheel drive cars with more lower-end torque. The power delivery in these cars is more linear and easier to predict than the S2000's 'peaky' power delivery. Plus, understeer is easier to control and this is mostly what people experience.
Oversteer is a lot more 'mythical' in people's eyes and it's harder to react to. Understeer you usually lift off, or alternatively maintain throttle and hold the 'plow' line (slows you down though), but with o/s, there are many different techniques to utilize to get the car to go where you want it to. Unless you drive very agressively and/or spend lots of time on the track, every encounter with oversteer (be it power or trailing throttle) is different, and likely unpredictable.
I strongly believe that the S2000 is NOT the culprit here. Car's don't crash on their own. The tires 'may' have something to do with the situation and so might the road conditions, but I'd likely say that in most cases, it is driver error in the first place due to wrongfully reading road conditions and establishing appropriate vehicle speed and posture.
With the S2000, it is VERY easy to be going 10-20mph faster than you think you actually are, and this could be what is causing problems..Certainly, if the car is put into a situation of 'jeaopordy', the other factors of tyres and power delivery will definitely play a large influence - and may be the scapegoat when the story is recalled. You do feel like a bit of a hero in the S2000, so ego can also get a bit out of check by thinking that the car can handle everything you throw at it. No matter how good the S2000 is, it is still a car and it, as well as the driver, has limits. Certainly, the S2000 handles fantastically well in the dry, but in the wet (and/or cold), the car demands extra care.
I would not let any of the unfortunate experiences of any of the other S2000 owners dissuade you from enjoying such a fantastic and 'personable' car. You just need to remember that this little 2700-odd pound car is putting out 240+hp (200 at the wheels!!!) and has a very short wheelbase. With limited riding experience, you wouldn't just get onto a race horse and go hell for leather, you'd start out riding it slowly and getting a feel for it. But no matter how much you ride it, it could always rear and buck you off for so reason. S2000 is like that too...and that's the challenge that makes the car so enjoyable to drive!!!
Respect the car and it will respect you. It's that simple.
Jusy my $0.02. I welcome the feedback!
Cheers,
05-27-2001, 01:30 PM
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very nice post Sime, but you just scared me a little. 
Now not only do I have to worry about getting used to a RWD car, I have to worry about getting used to the S2000's engine. I don't know too much about cars, so all this engine talk doesn't make any sense to me. You're saying the S2000 all of the sudden give you some extra juice out of nowhere? You can be driving 10-20 miles FASTER than you think??
All I wanted was a fast and sweet looking car, and the S2000 was it. But surely it's not worth endangering my life!
Someone else made a good point, most of you guys seem pretty hard core into cars. I'm not like this (maybe in the future, who knows!). So I hope I don't have to be an extreme enthusiast to drive the S2000! I just wanna drive it and have fun doing it. But I definitely would like to know enough to keep myself safe.
Can't be THAT hard to learn to drive the S2000 safely, can it?
Mike
[Edited by Vista25 on 05-27-2001 at 02:34 PM]
Now not only do I have to worry about getting used to a RWD car, I have to worry about getting used to the S2000's engine. I don't know too much about cars, so all this engine talk doesn't make any sense to me. You're saying the S2000 all of the sudden give you some extra juice out of nowhere? You can be driving 10-20 miles FASTER than you think??All I wanted was a fast and sweet looking car, and the S2000 was it. But surely it's not worth endangering my life!
Someone else made a good point, most of you guys seem pretty hard core into cars. I'm not like this (maybe in the future, who knows!). So I hope I don't have to be an extreme enthusiast to drive the S2000!
I just wanna drive it and have fun doing it. But I definitely would like to know enough to keep myself safe.Can't be THAT hard to learn to drive the S2000 safely, can it?
Mike
[Edited by Vista25 on 05-27-2001 at 02:34 PM]
05-27-2001, 01:34 PM
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I too had a teg, and I had no problems switching to the S2. I've never got to practice losing control of my car in a driving class or on my own in an empty lot. All, I do is if the tire is cold or if the weather is bad, I just keep the rpms low. I drive very concervatively under those conditions. So far that has kept me out of trouble.
05-27-2001, 01:45 PM
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Taking it nice and easy is alright but you'll never really enjoy the car if you're always worried that you won't be able to cope in a difficult situation.
Like most things you have to either read the instructions or get instruction. You wouldn't expect to be good at playing golf or tennis without expert coaching and the same's true with driving. It's much better to get some expert tuition and have confidence when you are driving.
I went through two racing schools and even the likes of Ayrton Senna and Emerson Fittipaldi did the same. Skills that l learnt there have got me out of situations on the road that I would never have been prepared for otherwise.
Like most things you have to either read the instructions or get instruction. You wouldn't expect to be good at playing golf or tennis without expert coaching and the same's true with driving. It's much better to get some expert tuition and have confidence when you are driving.
I went through two racing schools and even the likes of Ayrton Senna and Emerson Fittipaldi did the same. Skills that l learnt there have got me out of situations on the road that I would never have been prepared for otherwise.
05-27-2001, 01:51 PM
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Mike!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't let me scare you!! I'm sorry!!!!!
Let me clear some things up.....
The S2000 is a very easy car to drive. It's just like a Civic when you don't push it....but when you do push it, the cars limits are so high it's unreal! All you have to be careful with is that because it is so fun to drive, you 'can' get over enthusiastic and you might find yourself going 15-20mph faster into a corner than you think you are (because the car is so composed!!).
Luckily the S2000 also has absolutely AWESOME brakes that you can rely on.
With regards to the engine....VTEC will give you a rush of power at higher revs (post 6000rpm). Whereas most cars will 'run out of puff' as they rev higher, the S2000 will only keep pulling harder. This is the Vtec rush and is a lot of fun.
To sum it up...the S2000 is a very easy car to drive..even when going fast or even at the limit. You just need to respect the car and not try and do anything stupid or unrealistic. BTW, the S2000 handles so much better than my old 2000 C5 Corvette and the little Honda really will reward you.
My best advice to you is to buy the car and really enjoy it...don't be scared of it!!!!!! It's not a Jeckel and Hyde car. You just have to respect the car....really, that's the only lesson that you need to know when you drive it!!!
Just try if you can to go to a high performance driving school and take the car on the track. You'll be able to get a safe appreciation of what the car really can do. Part of the problems are with SOME S2000 owners thinking that they are Juan Montoya or M. Schumacher and becuase they have an S2000, they are now the worlds best driver.
PM me and I'll give you my phone number if you'd like to talk S2000's. If you have the means to acquire an S2000, you are one of the fortunate few that will really understand automotive bliss! The S2000 does it all...it can go down to the supermarket, do a boulevard cruise and it can also hot lap Laguna Seca...right out of the crate!
I'm sure there are other more experienced S drivers in your area that will take you under their wing and show you the way. Drive the car, learn it's ways and once again...respect it. You will be rewarded and you will have fun.....and LOTS of it I might add!
As a side note, I have to add that the S is no different than any other high power car. They all need to be respected. Furtunately for you, the S is such a nice car to drive that you will learn to drive a RWD car properly. It won't do anything untoward up to 11/10ths!!!
If you can, please buy the car. You'll look back on this part of your life and I guarantee that if you heed our advice about respecting the S2000, your memories of the car will be filled with smiles :-)
Cheers
Don't let me scare you!! I'm sorry!!!!!
Let me clear some things up.....
The S2000 is a very easy car to drive. It's just like a Civic when you don't push it....but when you do push it, the cars limits are so high it's unreal! All you have to be careful with is that because it is so fun to drive, you 'can' get over enthusiastic and you might find yourself going 15-20mph faster into a corner than you think you are (because the car is so composed!!).
Luckily the S2000 also has absolutely AWESOME brakes that you can rely on.
With regards to the engine....VTEC will give you a rush of power at higher revs (post 6000rpm). Whereas most cars will 'run out of puff' as they rev higher, the S2000 will only keep pulling harder. This is the Vtec rush and is a lot of fun.
To sum it up...the S2000 is a very easy car to drive..even when going fast or even at the limit. You just need to respect the car and not try and do anything stupid or unrealistic. BTW, the S2000 handles so much better than my old 2000 C5 Corvette and the little Honda really will reward you.
My best advice to you is to buy the car and really enjoy it...don't be scared of it!!!!!! It's not a Jeckel and Hyde car. You just have to respect the car....really, that's the only lesson that you need to know when you drive it!!!
Just try if you can to go to a high performance driving school and take the car on the track. You'll be able to get a safe appreciation of what the car really can do. Part of the problems are with SOME S2000 owners thinking that they are Juan Montoya or M. Schumacher and becuase they have an S2000, they are now the worlds best driver.
PM me and I'll give you my phone number if you'd like to talk S2000's. If you have the means to acquire an S2000, you are one of the fortunate few that will really understand automotive bliss! The S2000 does it all...it can go down to the supermarket, do a boulevard cruise and it can also hot lap Laguna Seca...right out of the crate!
I'm sure there are other more experienced S drivers in your area that will take you under their wing and show you the way. Drive the car, learn it's ways and once again...respect it. You will be rewarded and you will have fun.....and LOTS of it I might add!
As a side note, I have to add that the S is no different than any other high power car. They all need to be respected. Furtunately for you, the S is such a nice car to drive that you will learn to drive a RWD car properly. It won't do anything untoward up to 11/10ths!!!
If you can, please buy the car. You'll look back on this part of your life and I guarantee that if you heed our advice about respecting the S2000, your memories of the car will be filled with smiles :-)
Cheers
05-27-2001, 02:15 PM
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Interesting comments from everyone. My experience has been the Stook performs very well in wet weather, HOWEVER, you need to keep her calmed down or you will be in trouble.
As for S2000 Owners comment that when you VTEC unexpectedly in wet weather, my comment is why are the RPM's so high in wet weather? When it's wet, I drvie the stook like a regular old, ordinary, simple, boring car! It's not fun, but it sure is safe and I know I won't have any problems.
Shift from 1st to 2nd at 2500 rpm, 2nd to 3rd at the same and you will never have to worry about kicking into VTEC when you are least expecting it.
Going into a turn in wet weather at 60mph that is posted 35MPH (suggested) is just plain suicide, IMO.
So, bottom line is if you drive sensibly in wet weather, you will do fine with the stook. And in dry weather, you can just let her rip and have a ball.
As for S2000 Owners comment that when you VTEC unexpectedly in wet weather, my comment is why are the RPM's so high in wet weather? When it's wet, I drvie the stook like a regular old, ordinary, simple, boring car! It's not fun, but it sure is safe and I know I won't have any problems.
Shift from 1st to 2nd at 2500 rpm, 2nd to 3rd at the same and you will never have to worry about kicking into VTEC when you are least expecting it.
Going into a turn in wet weather at 60mph that is posted 35MPH (suggested) is just plain suicide, IMO.
So, bottom line is if you drive sensibly in wet weather, you will do fine with the stook. And in dry weather, you can just let her rip and have a ball.
