All good points.

 

I think a little differently about spinning.

CPR. Correction, pause and recovery. The problem with this method is that it doesn't tell you how much to correct, how long to pause, and how much recovery is required.

So I say forget about CPR. There is a better way in my opinion.

Vision.

Look where you want to go rather than at what you think you might hit. This means looking through the corner, past the track out point, and maybe even at the apex of the next corner. Look way down the road and ignore that tree or wall or whatever that you think you might hit. This is the hard part. And very unnatural. But it is the key to recovery. It takes some practice.

Once you do this you will be able to sense the changing rates of the car's rotation. As the car begins to step out you will see that your line is tightening, and by looking at where you want to go your natural reaction is for your hands to countersteer properly. Its simple - you see that the car's tightening line is not going to get you where you want to go and so your hands react. And they react just enough to get you to where you want to go. Its automatic. No thinking about CPR. You just drive normally.

So then the car starts stablizing itself - yaw is not increasing anymore, the rear of the car is still sliding but the front is countersteered so that you are going where you want to go. This is the pause phase.

Finally the rear starts to hook up and with the countersteer still in place the car starts to track outside where you want to go. You see this because you are looking where you want to go. So your hands naturally reduce the countersteer - the recovery phase.

Each spin situation is different. Practice using your eyes correctly. Your hands will know what to do all by themselves.

Now nobody can catch all spins. But if you ask a truely experienced driver why they crashed, chances are they will say the problem was due to their poor vision.

 

Also take care not to overcorrect. Bring the back in too quick and it will swing around the other direction, possibly much faster than before and almost impossible to catch. Once you dial in some counter steer you need to anticipate the back straightening out and start backing off the steering before the rear of the car catches. As far as throttle goes, no abrubt changes. Best thing to do is to practice, and be aware that cars behave a lot differently in the rain vs dry. Just because you can catch a slide in the wet doesn't mean it feels the same when it's dry. Another factor is speed. Fast corners make a car feel floaty and less predictable. Jerky throttle input also makes a bigger difference when travelling at higher speeds. Most of the time people that slide their cars around on purpose are experiencing power-oversteer at low speed. Getting oversteer at the limit is a different beast yet people tend to react the same way and get into trouble. Again, the best way to learn is to practice somewhere where you can safely spin you car. Track, skidpad, auto-x, or even a big empty parking lot if you can find it.

 

My training involved icy roads and parking lots and a '65 289 Mustang. It was a very effective way to learn because the spins would happen in slow motion (compared to dry roads, that is), which gave me the time to learn how to feel them coming and catch them when they came. I got very good with rear drive cars on ice, hanging the tail out at will and balancing my line with the throttle.

I found these skills translate well to regular driving. And, like riding a bicycle, once you learn how to do this it stays with you.

I agree with jschmidt's analysis. It works.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RicePimp
[B]Best thing to do is to practice, and be aware that cars behave a lot differently in the rain vs dry. Just because you can catch a slide in the wet doesn't mean it feels the same when it's dry.

 

Great post, good answers. A few things I will add.

If you are in the oversteer situation and you realize you are not going to catch it, in some situations I have spun the steering wheel in the opposite direction of the rear wheel skid to tighten up the skid and lower the chance of going off the track. This is NOT a blanket rule for me, I have done this a few times and it has made the difference between staying on the track and sliding off into the wet grass which I thought would send me flying into the armco.

If you do put both feet in and go for that scary ride, DO NOT take your foot off the pedals until the car has stopped and you have counted to five. I have seen lots of cars spin, "stop", and then roll right into trouble. Your mind is fooled into thinking the car is sitting still when it is still moving slowly, when you take you feet off the pedals the darn car almost seems to accelerate. Time and time again I have seen someone spin, seem to have the car stopped on the track, they take their feet off the pedals too quickly only to run into the armco or out into the rest of the traffic that is trying so hard to get around.

 

Great points guys. I want to emphasize a little something... Anticipation. While on track, most loss of traction situations are forseeable. If you know that you're in a situation where you're going to have to ease off the throttle in mid corner, EXPECT some trailing throttle oversteer and be ready to correct it.

Or, lets say you're learning a corner and you're working on building your exit speed; you're picking up the throttle sooner and more aggressively each lap until you reach a point when your butt tells you "OK, we're nearing the limits dude, expect some power oversteer here....See, there it is...now just a little touch of opposite lock...pause...Nice !" Next lap, do exactly the same thing, but go ahead and open up the steering wheel a little just when you feel the tail twitch and you're most likely going to experience a slight 4 wheel, full throttle drift all the way out to the trackout curb, and you'll arrive at the NEXT corner about 5mph faster, so now you'll have to brake a little earlier....Anticipation.

If you get surprised by situations, you have to dig much deeper into your recovery skills bag. If you find yourself catching huge left, right, left, "tank slappers", your killing your lap times and you are not catching the slides soon enough, or you are over- correcting (or both). If you are paying attention, small, decisive corrections (early) will prevent big moments later. Hit someone else's oil slick and that's another story.

On the street, there are more situations that may not be as forseeable, which is why exploration of this cars rather high limits should be conducted on track or in a large empty parking lot.

 

Kinda along these lines too.....a great way to learn to drive your car in the snow....take it to a big parking lot(no light poles or parked cars) right after its snows, & do donuts! It's a good way of learning(& a blast) how to countersteer in less than ideal conditions(bad weather).

 

Damn Jim impressive! You've been reading again! I agree with everything including a puncuation on the SMOOTHLY COUNTERSTEER! I was playing around yesterday in the Mall Parking lot, and tried a little experiment. As it was wet and fairly cold, I decided to see what oversteer could actually do. I got the car in a little rearend drift and snapped the steering wheel back in the same direction as a count as if I was in a panic. Well, guess what, yep 360!
Did it again, this time I smoothly turned the wheel in the same direction and kept power to the wheels. Car righted itself to a straight line. Once again, this time with added power, and again a 360. (No traction!) Ok one more time, and I let off the gas and again smoothly counter steered. The rearend snapped back in the opposite direction to about a 60 degree slid. Counter again, and then it straightened out. If I would have applied power it would have slapped the other direction.

Ok, moral to the story. Smooth application of proper counter steer, maintain forward momentum with same moderate accelerator pressure and the vehicle will generally right itself.

Trying to power through the spin, no good.

Let up on the gas it will snap the rearend back in the other direction with almost the same results.

I've come to the conclusion that it's not so much about tire selection. It's the wheel base and quick steering ability of the S2000 that causes problems for some drivers. So, it's simply knowing the characteristics of the vehicle and being smoother with your steering transitions so you can overcome the tail wagging. Of course, practice, practice, practice!!

Good piece Jim!

Cheers

Jeff

 

Yes, thanks to the big guy from Maryland. I seem to handle the sliding intuitively...I think it's the vision thing and not getting too rattled.

Since I added Kumho 712's on the rear back in mid-October, I get a lot more practice in sliding around corners I'm looking forward to some snow to allow more practice