cthree

No

ultimate lurker

A straight where an S2000 can reach 106 mph isn't that short, or more appropriately, the track isn't _that_ tight - acceleration wise the S2K is a decent, but not fast car by most measures. I actually purchase Sport Auto on a regular basis, so I familiar with the config they use and their speed/g measurement points. I was particularly excited by their huge tuner car track test at Hockenheim last year. On the same straight where an S2000 reaches 106 mph, a Viper GTS will pull 10-15 mph more easily. And a Viper GTS handles slow speed stuff just fine. It may not be as nimble or refined or balanced as a S2000, but it generates huge amounts of grip.

If Mr. Sarma was able to generate such good times in the Viper at the Ring, then I would suggest that conditions simply vary too much for these results to be easily comparable.

UL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidM
[B]-------------------------------
On a course with significant straights and triple digit speeds like Hockeheim..
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erm, I'm not sure where you're getting that but this is a tight track with a very short straight - you need something at least as fast as an S2000 to break into "triple digit speeds" and there are no "significant straight". As I said before (twice now in this thread) - on the main straight the S2000 manages about 170kph ... that is 106mph.

If you're interested, I'll send you a track map with the speeds of S2000 in each corner/straight on it.


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I think Mr Von Sarma either needs more seat time, or conditions just vary too much to make meaningful comparisons.

FCGuy

As DaveM mentioned, the Hockenheim course used was not the full one with all the 200mph straights used for the F1 Grand Prix. I assume it uses the shortcut that makes it a course using the stadium part of the circuit. Mixes a twisty infield section with some reasonably fast straights.

There's a great book that was available at Borders for ~$7 (bargain shelf) named "World Motor Racing Circuits" which includes it and about 70 other circuits. Great buy.

I believe the Corvette they used was an automatic. For some bizarre reason, it is the only 'vette sold in Europe even in the face of their overwhelming preference for manuals!

As to the SMG, I would not call it a "glorified automatic". It has a clutch plate (no pedal), it does not have a torque converter. It's a version of what is used in F1. It isn't like the bogus "tiptronic", "sportshift" etc. I'm surprised it isn't faster than the manual given that it can reportedly make very fast smooth (rev-matched and double-clutched?) shifts.


Same magazine, probably same driver, probably older list, but includes the Nurburgring and some other cars not included in the original list posted by DaveM

BTW, if you ever get to Germany, do make a trip to the 'Ring. For about 16 DM (~10 Euros) a lap, you get to experience a 180-turn, 13mi monster of a course. One of the most famous in the world. Truly terrifying

Nuerburgring Nordschleife (length 20,6 km):
Porsche 996 Turbo --- 7 min. 56 sec.
Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo (600 HP, racing suspension) --- 7 min. 57 sec.
Porsche 996 GT3 --- 8 min. 03 sec.
Ferrari 550 --- 8 min. 07 sec.
Lamborghini Diablo SV --- 8 min. 09 sec.
Ferrari 360 Modena --- 8 min. 09 sec.
Chrysler Viper GTS --- 8 min. 10 sec.
Porsche 993 Turbo (430 HP version) --- 8 min. 12 sec.
Porsche 996 C2 --- 8 min. 17 sec.
Ferrari F355 --- 8 min. 18 sec.
BMW M Coupe (321 HP) --- 8 min. 22 sec.
Porsche 993 C2 --- 8 min. 28 sec.
BMW M5 (400 HP) --- 8 min. 28 sec.
Porsche Boxster S --- 8 min. 32 sec.
BMW M3 Coupe (321 HP) --- 8 min. 35 sec. <--- E36 M3Euro
Honda NSX --- 8 min. 38 sec.
Honda S 2000 --- 8 min. 39 sec.
Chevrolet Corvette --- 8 min. 40 sec.
Audi S4 (265 HP) --- 8 min. 42 sec.
Jaguar XKR Coupe --- 8 min. 49 sec.
Mercedes CLK 430 --- 8 min. 52 sec.


Hockenheim Kleiner Kurs (length 2,6 km):
Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo (600 HP, racing suspension) --- 1 min. 12,3 sec.
Porsche 993 Turbo --- 1 min. 14,3 sec.
Porsche 996 Turbo --- 1 min. 14,6 sec.
Porsche 996 GT3 --- 1 min. 14,9 sec.
Ferrari 360 Modena --- 1 min. 15,1 sec.
Ferrari F355 --- 1 min. 15,3 sec.
Porsche 996 C2 --- 1 min. 15,9 sec.
Chrysler Viper GTS --- 1 min. 15,9 sec.
Ferrari 550 --- 1 min. 16,1 sec.
Lamborghini Diablo SV --- 1 min. 16,4 sec.
BMW M Coupe (321 HP) --- 1 min. 17,2 sec.
Chevrolet Corvette --- 1 min. 18,2 sec.
Porsche Boxster S --- 1 min. 18,3 sec.
Porsche 993 C2 --- 1 min. 18,4 sec.
Honda NSX --- 1 min. 18,4 sec.
BMW M3 Coupe (321 HP) --- 1 min. 18,4 sec. <- E36 Euro
BMW M5 (400 HP) --- 1 min. 18,5 sec.
Honda S 2000 --- 1 min. 18,9 sec.
Porsche Boxster --- 1 min. 19,3 sec.
Mercedes CLK 430 --- 1 min. 20,8 sec

infinitebass

I do have to say that even with the same driver and relatively similar conditions, its going to be hard to get an accurate comparison of 90+ cars. sure its the same driver, but each time he does a lap, thats just one more under his belt, making him somewhat more experienced...

Blake

elanderholm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tanqueray
[B]BMW Z3 Coupe?

It is interesting that a Viper did so well, but that a Corvette didn't.

UKjasonm

Just come back from a track day today. Cars consisted of Caterham/Westfield lots of Elises, 1 Exige, TVR,. 911, 928, me in the S2000 and a car called the nutter which is a westfield with an S2000 engine in it.

How good a track day car is the S2000? as good as the driver which in my case today was lousy. I was the first car out on track this morning and only managed 1/2 lap before I spun the car, I followed that with 2 further spins before I gave up on the day after scratching the front wing when I took out almost all the cones in the chicane.

Im sure in the right hands the S2000 is a great track day car but its damn unforgiving for us who dont have the correct instruction. Of my 3 spins today you could argue they were all driver induced, the first was a mis gear change when breaking/entering a corner, the 2nd was a snap when trying to correct oversteer and the 3rd was pure foolishness on my behalf by breaking mid corner. I accept total blame for the 1st and 3rd but the 2nd shows the unforgiving nature, the car started to oversteer I thought Id caught when bang it flew hard back the other way. I experienced oversteer throughout the day as a passenger in the caterhams and the nutter but in those cars the drivers (albeit far more experienced than me) all managed to catch the car without any hint of a snap back.

I left the day feeling a little peed off with the car but I'm going to seek some instruction before I make my final call on it. I left the track thinking right thats it the S2000's going and Im going to get a Caterham and an Accord to replace it but now I've had time to calm down Im going to give it another chance when I've learned to drive a bit better.

DavidM

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A straight where an S2000 can reach 106 mph isn't that short, or more appropriately, the track isn't _that_ tight - acceleration wise the S2K is a decent, but not fast car by most measures.
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Sorry UL, I thought you were refering to the F1 Hokenheim track which has very long straights. Still, we must have different perception as I'd class this track as a 'tight, low speed' track. To me a fast track will have straights of 200+kph (125+mph) and have corner that are mainly 3rd gear instead of 2nd.

Though, all the times in the list need to be taken with some 'variance' in mind ... I just found a BoxsterS time that is 1:18.3 from a different "Sports Auto" so that is 0.7sec quicker than in the list (FCGuy listed it as well) . Also, I have another S2000 time of 1:19.6 so. Yeah, don't take these as an 'end all' of what these cars can do on this track .... though, they generally seem to fall into 'expected' order.

btw, I'm surprised that noone is complaining about the Subaru WRX STi .... that roaugly EVO6 caliber of the car so it should be somehwere around the EVO. I though, that was the one that people would notice .... though I guess they're not that gib inthe States.


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I experienced oversteer throughout the day as a passenger in the caterhams and the nutter but in those cars the drivers (albeit far more experienced than me) all managed to catch the car without any hint of a snap back.
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I'd say that's because someone 'else' was driving - I find S2000 more progressive over the limit then most cars. Also, easier to correct (ie. bring back). At the same time I've seen people loose Elises, M3s and Boxsters in 'snap over-steer' like you describe. There's not such thing as a car that does not 'snap over-steer' - every car does it when provoked. That's just what cars/physics do. Important thing is to learn 'read' the car and correct slides properly. Neither can be learned from a text-book by by getting some hard seat time on the track. You can't learn what the car does when it get's out of shape unless you get if out of shape a few times so just keep on tracking it.

ps. Here's a pic of the track with S2000's speeds noted on it (as well as BoxsterS from a direct comparision). Thanks to Iggy fpr hosting it.