Gears
08-23-2005, 03:56 PM
#51
Registered User
[QUOTE=OverBooster,Aug 23 2005, 04:50 PM] Spiffy dude, my grandfather worked for Boeing for 36 years heading up designs on their first commercial jet airliner.
08-23-2005, 04:19 PM
#52
Registered User
It's you who chooses to focus on a particular type of race. You were the first to champion the effects of lower gears on 1/4 mile times in this thread and it would be a shame to base mod purchases for the S2000 on that exclusively.
B. a "shame" to base mod purchases based on their straight line effects exclusively? now you're really stretching. not only does it increase straight line acceleration, but gives better response down low, so I can remain in a lower gear without having to downshift if i want to pick up a little speed. it can also help city mpg figures. and even ignoring those, why is it "a shame" to base your purchase of the gears on straight line acceleration? now you're coming off as an elitist who thinks that anyone who doesn't agree with your stance on straight line acceleration gains is "a shame".
Where did I say that???
Try some races where you end up at 6300 rpms for example(in different gears) and see how the results compare. It would take a much more controlled environment for this to be considered anything more than a hasty generalization.
1. You have a very selective definition for "faster".
Adv. 1. faster - more quickly
so, yeah, it accelerates "more quickly". explain to me how there is another definition of the word faster? since the gearing helps acceleration overall, it also offers advantages on road course and auto-x, but again, those results are harder to quantify.
2. You are bordering on superstition with the "There is no grey area" remark.
I made no conclusion on the performance effects of the gears. I pointed out that they are attracted to cars that can feel faster than they are.
if I were to say "people who disagree with me are morons", one can take that as me saying that you're a moron. then I come back and argue "but that's not what I said". this is the type of argument you are making right now. you come back and claim "well i never said those thing" when you insinuated otherwise in your previouis statements. to be honest, this is getting quite ridiculous.
If you study the integrals from start speed to finish speed, you will see that your car doesn't always have more area under the curve...
08-23-2005, 04:58 PM
#54
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I'm trying to see if I can graph this out myself. If I'm using the Reverend's Gear Calculator, do I just plug in 4.44/4.57/4.77 in the "Axle ratio" to change this? (stock is 4.10?)
http://reverendsgarage.net/index.php?conte..._calculator.php
http://reverendsgarage.net/index.php?conte..._calculator.php
08-23-2005, 05:05 PM
#55
Registered User
Originally Posted by JDogg,Aug 23 2005, 06:58 PM
I'm trying to see if I can graph this out myself. If I'm using the Reverend's Gear Calculator, do I just plug in 4.44/4.57/4.77 in the "Axle ratio" to change this? (stock is 4.10?)
http://reverendsgarage.net/index.php?conte..._calculator.php
http://reverendsgarage.net/index.php?conte..._calculator.php
08-23-2005, 05:16 PM
#56
Registered User
Originally Posted by jasonw,Aug 23 2005, 06:47 PM
I hardly find it useful to limit the discussion of a mod to 1/4 mile unless that's the stated sole purpose of the mod.
I said 1/4 mile...In other words, a specific speed interval.
I made no such insinuation. Distorting my initial point so that you can make an argument is the very definition of the
Straw Man Fallacy
Definition:
The author attacks an argument which is different from, and
usually weaker than, the opposition's best argument.
Examples:
(i) People who opposed the Charlottown Accord probably just
wanted Quebec to separate. But we want Quebec to stay in
Canada.
(ii) We should have conscription. People don't want to enter
the military because they find it an inconvenience. But they
should realize that there are more important things than
convenience.
You are talking about which car is faster from 0-100 in a straigt line. That is selective.
By all means don't feel a need to try and put words into my mouth. Your time is better spent with a Calculus book.
Now that is the
argumentum ad ignorantiam Argument from point of ignorance
Definition:
Arguments of this form assume that since something has not been proven false, it is therefore true. Conversely, such an argument may assume that since something has not been proven true, it is therefore false. (This is a special case of a false dilemma, since it assumes that all propositions must either be known to be true or known to be false.) As Davis writes, "Lack of proof is not proof." (p. 59)
Examples:
(i) Since you cannot prove that ghosts do not exist, they must exist.
(ii) Since scientists cannot prove that global warming will occur, it probably won't.
(iii) Fred said that he is smarter than Jill, but he didn't prove it, so it must be false.
I said 1/4 mile...In other words, a specific speed interval.
I made no such insinuation. Distorting my initial point so that you can make an argument is the very definition of the
Straw Man Fallacy
Definition:
The author attacks an argument which is different from, and
usually weaker than, the opposition's best argument.
Examples:
(i) People who opposed the Charlottown Accord probably just
wanted Quebec to separate. But we want Quebec to stay in
Canada.
(ii) We should have conscription. People don't want to enter
the military because they find it an inconvenience. But they
should realize that there are more important things than
convenience.
You are talking about which car is faster from 0-100 in a straigt line. That is selective.
By all means don't feel a need to try and put words into my mouth. Your time is better spent with a Calculus book.
Now that is the
argumentum ad ignorantiam Argument from point of ignorance
Definition:
Arguments of this form assume that since something has not been proven false, it is therefore true. Conversely, such an argument may assume that since something has not been proven true, it is therefore false. (This is a special case of a false dilemma, since it assumes that all propositions must either be known to be true or known to be false.) As Davis writes, "Lack of proof is not proof." (p. 59)
Examples:
(i) Since you cannot prove that ghosts do not exist, they must exist.
(ii) Since scientists cannot prove that global warming will occur, it probably won't.
(iii) Fred said that he is smarter than Jill, but he didn't prove it, so it must be false.
i could continue this, but i'd just be repeating myself. side step it all you want, you know what you were insinuating.bottom line:
FACT:
a 4.57 geared S2000 is faster than a stock S2000 starting at any speed roll or from a stop. as to "how much" faster is determined by starting speed.
FACT:
4.57 gears offer more than "just" straight line benefits, such as more responsiveness and acceleration in lower gears, allowing you to remain in lower gears during daily every day driving, and still have decent acceleration in that gear if need be. also increased city mpg fuel savings.
FACT:
4.57 gears offer an advantage on road course, and auto-x tracks, though how much of an advantage is hard to quantify. it would have to be a very selective track to put the car into an awkward gearing stance where you find yourself unable to use the gearing to your advantage, and especially to make the stock S2000 faster overall around the track.
so if all of that is either unclear to you, or "not worth it" in determining the value of this mod, then there is nothing more anyone can say that will convince you otherwise. what's next? the earth is flat?
08-23-2005, 05:21 PM
#57
Originally Posted by jasonw,Aug 23 2005, 08:47 PM
I hardly find it useful to limit the discussion of a mod to 1/4 mile unless that's the stated sole purpose of the mod.
I said 1/4 mile...In other words, a specific speed interval.
I made no such insinuation. Distorting my initial point so that you can make an argument is the very definition of the
Straw Man Fallacy
Definition:
The author attacks an argument which is different from, and
usually weaker than, the opposition's best argument.
Examples:
(i) People who opposed the Charlottown Accord probably just
wanted Quebec to separate. But we want Quebec to stay in
Canada.
(ii) We should have conscription. People don't want to enter
the military because they find it an inconvenience. But they
should realize that there are more important things than
convenience.
You are talking about which car is faster from 0-100 in a straigt line. That is selective.
By all means don't feel a need to try and put words into my mouth. Your time is better spent with a Calculus book.
Now that is the
argumentum ad ignorantiam Argument from point of ignorance
Definition:
Arguments of this form assume that since something has not been proven false, it is therefore true. Conversely, such an argument may assume that since something has not been proven true, it is therefore false. (This is a special case of a false dilemma, since it assumes that all propositions must either be known to be true or known to be false.) As Davis writes, "Lack of proof is not proof." (p. 59)
Examples:
(i) Since you cannot prove that ghosts do not exist, they must exist.
(ii) Since scientists cannot prove that global warming will occur, it probably won't.
(iii) Fred said that he is smarter than Jill, but he didn't prove it, so it must be false.
I said 1/4 mile...In other words, a specific speed interval.
I made no such insinuation. Distorting my initial point so that you can make an argument is the very definition of the
Straw Man Fallacy
Definition:
The author attacks an argument which is different from, and
usually weaker than, the opposition's best argument.
Examples:
(i) People who opposed the Charlottown Accord probably just
wanted Quebec to separate. But we want Quebec to stay in
Canada.
(ii) We should have conscription. People don't want to enter
the military because they find it an inconvenience. But they
should realize that there are more important things than
convenience.
You are talking about which car is faster from 0-100 in a straigt line. That is selective.
By all means don't feel a need to try and put words into my mouth. Your time is better spent with a Calculus book.
Now that is the
argumentum ad ignorantiam Argument from point of ignorance
Definition:
Arguments of this form assume that since something has not been proven false, it is therefore true. Conversely, such an argument may assume that since something has not been proven true, it is therefore false. (This is a special case of a false dilemma, since it assumes that all propositions must either be known to be true or known to be false.) As Davis writes, "Lack of proof is not proof." (p. 59)
Examples:
(i) Since you cannot prove that ghosts do not exist, they must exist.
(ii) Since scientists cannot prove that global warming will occur, it probably won't.
(iii) Fred said that he is smarter than Jill, but he didn't prove it, so it must be false.
08-23-2005, 05:44 PM
#59
Registered User
I now know that you can't read minds... The original point again was that Mustang and Camaro owners tend to want different things from their cars than S2000 owners.
even so, as I said, the benefits of gears DO extend beyond just straight line speed.
1. And ending speed?
2. You need a much more controlled environment to elevate that to a fact from a
Theory
An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.
2. You need a much more controlled environment to elevate that to a fact from a
Theory
An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.
in the real world a perfect controlled environment isn't possible. that said, there is enough of a difference between the two, that the other variables which are not perfectly controllable would be negligible in their difference.
it's not a theory. it's a principle that has been proven and applied to cars for the last several decades. unless of course you feel that the last several decades of street, strip, and race track cars have been using the advantages of gearing, even though it's just a "theory".
FACT: You are not considering that if you are near the top of the power band while taking a turn in the stock car, you will be in a higher gear after changing the final drive and that can be detrimental.
You were the one extolling street race results over Math and Science
08-23-2005, 06:03 PM
#60
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gears mod is just a final gear ratio difference, right?
If it's right, can I ask something?
If the 4.57 or 4.44 is supposedly better than the stock, why doesn't Honda use that gear ratio instead? Why do they go the other way? Does it cost more for Honda to achieve the 4.57 or 4.44 gear ratio compare to the stock one?
Just curious. Thanks.
If it's right, can I ask something?
If the 4.57 or 4.44 is supposedly better than the stock, why doesn't Honda use that gear ratio instead? Why do they go the other way? Does it cost more for Honda to achieve the 4.57 or 4.44 gear ratio compare to the stock one?
Just curious. Thanks.