Funny Behavior in the Wet
02-19-2002, 07:22 AM
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Funny Behavior in the Wet
We don't get a lot of rain here in Southern California. I've driven my S2000 in the rain before without any problems, even with worn rear tires. The other day I drove in the wet and it was a different story altogether!
My rear S02s are worn again, the road was wet and I felt the rear end stepping out (back and forth) even while driving in a straight line! I didn't take it over 40 mph, but I was being tossed between the seat bolsters as the rear end stepped right then left and back, repeatedly. It felt like it the rear end was darting a few inches back and forth. I played 18 holes, the roads dried, and the car didn't misbehave on the way home. I checked the tire pressures and they were spot on - 32 all around.
I've noticed a subtle and occasional dartiness while cruising on the highway in the dry, but I just attributed it to the wind or road surface. Now, I'm not so sure.
I think it has something to do with the limited slip differential. Any thoughts? Anyone else experience anything like this?
Here's an addendum dealer horror story. I took my car in to Honda World for a second go at the clutch TSB. They had my car for 2 weeks, and supposedly replaced the clutch, flywheel, etc. When I was supposed to pick up my car, they called and told me they had to keep the car for a few more days. I spoke with the tech who told me that while test driving the car, he "lost the rear end," and that they were repainting my rear bumper as a "favor." When I went to pick up my car the rear bumper was covered with compound. "You said not to wash the car," the service writer told me. "You didn't wash the car, but you thought it was OK to paint it?" "We did you a favor." When I washed the compound off the bumper I saw that it didn't fit, it was covered with holographic swirl marks and the color was more grey than black. Not happy I went back and forth with the service manager until I sent the owner a terror-gram and they agreed to replace the rear bumper and pay for a reputable shop to paint and install it.
Now, I have the mental image of the Honda tech test driving my car, after market stereo blasting, doing smoking donuts, laughing maniacally while tossing empty beer cans, cooking my limited slip differential until he spun and bumped into something.
My rear S02s are worn again, the road was wet and I felt the rear end stepping out (back and forth) even while driving in a straight line! I didn't take it over 40 mph, but I was being tossed between the seat bolsters as the rear end stepped right then left and back, repeatedly. It felt like it the rear end was darting a few inches back and forth. I played 18 holes, the roads dried, and the car didn't misbehave on the way home. I checked the tire pressures and they were spot on - 32 all around.
I've noticed a subtle and occasional dartiness while cruising on the highway in the dry, but I just attributed it to the wind or road surface. Now, I'm not so sure.
I think it has something to do with the limited slip differential. Any thoughts? Anyone else experience anything like this?
Here's an addendum dealer horror story. I took my car in to Honda World for a second go at the clutch TSB. They had my car for 2 weeks, and supposedly replaced the clutch, flywheel, etc. When I was supposed to pick up my car, they called and told me they had to keep the car for a few more days. I spoke with the tech who told me that while test driving the car, he "lost the rear end," and that they were repainting my rear bumper as a "favor." When I went to pick up my car the rear bumper was covered with compound. "You said not to wash the car," the service writer told me. "You didn't wash the car, but you thought it was OK to paint it?" "We did you a favor." When I washed the compound off the bumper I saw that it didn't fit, it was covered with holographic swirl marks and the color was more grey than black. Not happy I went back and forth with the service manager until I sent the owner a terror-gram and they agreed to replace the rear bumper and pay for a reputable shop to paint and install it.
Now, I have the mental image of the Honda tech test driving my car, after market stereo blasting, doing smoking donuts, laughing maniacally while tossing empty beer cans, cooking my limited slip differential until he spun and bumped into something.
02-19-2002, 07:51 AM
#2
Your observations of the differential are similar to what I observed when I had a torsen in the front end of a Scout a few years back. With the torsen directly acting on the steering drive wheels, it would just suddenly pull a little or a lot to one side or the other. Since I was driving at low speed, I felt it was no problem at the time. Now with the S2000 it may be a different matter.
02-19-2002, 08:02 AM
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I've noticed the same "dartiness" of the rear end in the wet. My rears are about shot (12k) and it wasn't there at all when they were new. I've noticed the same thing on other high perf. tires when they get worn so I'm not sure the diff. has anything to do with it.
02-19-2002, 08:12 AM
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If it exhibited none of this behavior before the service and exhibits it in varying degrees SINCE your service visit, I would have serious questions, much as you do, about exactly what the heck was going on at that dealership while they had it. Did they decide to have some fun and finish off your clutch since you were getting a new one, and in the process tag something with the bumper when all of that "lack o torque" surprised them?
Get in touch with your DSM, and then take it back to that dealer and raise hell until something is done to make your car yours again. MAKE SURE that you make a note of the mileage on 2 Post It notes: take one with you, and leave the other smack in the middle of the odometer so that they know YOU know if they're taking it anywhere. Make them initial on the service order that the car will not be taken ANYWHERE off the lot without you in the car.
Get in touch with your DSM, and then take it back to that dealer and raise hell until something is done to make your car yours again. MAKE SURE that you make a note of the mileage on 2 Post It notes: take one with you, and leave the other smack in the middle of the odometer so that they know YOU know if they're taking it anywhere. Make them initial on the service order that the car will not be taken ANYWHERE off the lot without you in the car.
02-19-2002, 08:23 AM
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Hi all!
Sideways, it feels like the differential to me. The rear end dartiness was tossing me around in the driver's seat pretty dramatically.
Hi Andrew, I've driven my S2000 in the rain before with worn rear S02s before and experienced no dartiness whatsoever. Something is new and wrong.
Sondra, just what I was thinking! I did use the post-it technique and they put 12 miles on the car. It didn't occur to me that since they were replacing the clutch and flywheel etc., they may have felt they could abuse it to failure.
I can tell you that this phenomenon is spooky in the extreme. This goes way beyond "unsettled" handling. What I have going now is downright unsafe.
Sideways, it feels like the differential to me. The rear end dartiness was tossing me around in the driver's seat pretty dramatically.
Hi Andrew, I've driven my S2000 in the rain before with worn rear S02s before and experienced no dartiness whatsoever. Something is new and wrong.
Sondra, just what I was thinking! I did use the post-it technique and they put 12 miles on the car. It didn't occur to me that since they were replacing the clutch and flywheel etc., they may have felt they could abuse it to failure.
I can tell you that this phenomenon is spooky in the extreme. This goes way beyond "unsettled" handling. What I have going now is downright unsafe.
02-19-2002, 12:24 PM
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2x6, sorry to hear about this issue. This kind of behaviour exhibited by the service is downright scary and especially since you sign the waiver that says any damage to the car is not their responsibility... it offers no customer protection whatsoever.
I would see to it that they tear down the diff, and maybe the tranny again - just to show YOU, the customer that there is damage or there is no further damage. this SHOULD BE THE LEAST that they can do for abusing your car like that.
others have had issues with the diff and had issues with the tranny and they are being denied coverage - yet, if this becomes a problem in the future, you should make sure that they note what the dealership has done to your car - just give em the VIN and hopefully they will mark it down. but one thing is for sure, you should really get the DSM involved in this issue to repremand the shop. fixing your "flawless" car with some shotty paint job is NOT acceptable.
I would see to it that they tear down the diff, and maybe the tranny again - just to show YOU, the customer that there is damage or there is no further damage. this SHOULD BE THE LEAST that they can do for abusing your car like that.
others have had issues with the diff and had issues with the tranny and they are being denied coverage - yet, if this becomes a problem in the future, you should make sure that they note what the dealership has done to your car - just give em the VIN and hopefully they will mark it down. but one thing is for sure, you should really get the DSM involved in this issue to repremand the shop. fixing your "flawless" car with some shotty paint job is NOT acceptable.
02-19-2002, 10:51 PM
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Hi Schatten
I had the new rear bumper painted and fitted by a really good shop, and it's now as good as new.
I wrote American Honda a letter today about the snakey handling in the wet. My secretary read it and suggested that maybe we do feel the effects of a bad differential even in the dry. "What about the bump steering?" she asked, "could that be related?" My jaw dropped. "How about the fact that your rear tires only last 5000 miles? Is that normal?"
Out of the mouths of babes. I think she might be onto something. Anyone else getting an average of 5000 miles from rear S02's?
"They really should've told you that you'd need new rear tires every time you get an oil change. You couldn've gotten a Porsche if you had known how much running an S2000 would've cost you."
Ouch.
I had the new rear bumper painted and fitted by a really good shop, and it's now as good as new.
I wrote American Honda a letter today about the snakey handling in the wet. My secretary read it and suggested that maybe we do feel the effects of a bad differential even in the dry. "What about the bump steering?" she asked, "could that be related?" My jaw dropped. "How about the fact that your rear tires only last 5000 miles? Is that normal?"
Out of the mouths of babes. I think she might be onto something. Anyone else getting an average of 5000 miles from rear S02's?
"They really should've told you that you'd need new rear tires every time you get an oil change. You couldn've gotten a Porsche if you had known how much running an S2000 would've cost you."
Ouch.
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02-19-2002, 11:26 PM
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Perhaps it is the lack of rain that is the problem....alot of road grime/oil builds up and when it finally decides to rain the result is slippery as soap! After a few days of rain the "soap" is washed away.
Jonas
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02-20-2002, 04:27 AM
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Don't get on the tires, like the people with the NSX did.
This is a sports car, it has an aggressive rear alignment for handling, and the OEM tires have a treadwear of 140. I had a set of Bridgestone RE730s on my Prelude which were Z-rated and lasted forever.
If they wear too fast, buy something else. Honda is notorious for under-tiring cars (Integra, RSX, Civic Si), so we should be lucky to have what we have.
As for the wet, I had a similar feeling on a slick newly paved road in the wet this weekend. It wasn't as pronounced as you say for me, but I attribute it to my right rear being worn more than my left. I have 6600 miles on my car.
This is a sports car, it has an aggressive rear alignment for handling, and the OEM tires have a treadwear of 140. I had a set of Bridgestone RE730s on my Prelude which were Z-rated and lasted forever.
If they wear too fast, buy something else. Honda is notorious for under-tiring cars (Integra, RSX, Civic Si), so we should be lucky to have what we have.
As for the wet, I had a similar feeling on a slick newly paved road in the wet this weekend. It wasn't as pronounced as you say for me, but I attribute it to my right rear being worn more than my left. I have 6600 miles on my car.