Engine has seized, any help?
03-31-2001, 04:54 PM
#41
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Barry WY Silver/Black '01
[B]
Barry,
Where do you get the time and energy to do all these mods. It seems you are there all the way - good for you. Enjoy the car, it certainly is well worth it.
[B]
Originally posted by cde
Best to you! I'm at 1481 joyous miles, 811 on my new engine, and all is well. I even installed new speakers today, Kenwood KFC xr600s.
Best to you! I'm at 1481 joyous miles, 811 on my new engine, and all is well. I even installed new speakers today, Kenwood KFC xr600s.
Where do you get the time and energy to do all these mods. It seems you are there all the way - good for you. Enjoy the car, it certainly is well worth it.
03-31-2001, 05:48 PM
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I don't know about the other DIY's out there, but after reading this, I will take my S to the dealer for every single oil change (of course I'll take my Mobil one with me). I think $10 for the service is cheap insurance. Specially with all these Engine failures. If something happens, it will be their fault.
04-01-2001, 07:18 PM
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To respond to Spa2k:
The only reason I wrote about the oil cap incident is to give background information about the two dealers involved. The one that I bought the car from and who performed the oil change and the one that found the source of the rattling noise and was able to fix the problem. Some people might have wondered why I changed servicing at one dealer and went to the other dealer. Some might ask why I had my oil changed at 2500 miles. It would just be easier to give the whole background than little bits and pieces as people ask for them or are curious. I don't think the loose cap is related to the engine problem at all. Maybe indirectly, since that is the reason I got my oil changed, which changed the oil filter, which is under suspicion as the cause.
The oil level was fine when I put the generic cap on and it was fine after the oil change. In my opinion the oil level was fine up until Saturday (day before it seized), last time I checked it. The generic cap was on only as long as it took for the dealer to order a new one (I didn't really understand your line of questioning there).
Addressing the crease, one thing that I think could be a possibility is that they overtorqued it. I assume the spec is hand tight, but maybe a service tech. used a wrench on it, overtorquing it, deforming it in the process, causing a pin hole leak. No other damage to the oil filter or surrounding components and I didn't hear any noises that signaled it was struck by something.
To be honest, I have no idea what happened. I heard the tapping when the car had oil which is consistent with #4 cylinder problem. Car no longer has any oil which is obviously consistent with a bad oil filter. It would be nice to know, and to let you all know, and Honda know what happened, but my major concern is getting the car fixed and in a timely manner. I'm trying to do this at the lowest level and let the process work. Service manager can't really give the go ahead for this work, so I have to wait for the district guy. Which I am. Once he and the insurance guy have looked at the car and done their bit, I'll talk to them and see if I need to raise it up the next level. I'm not threatening anyone. If I decided to use the BBB, I won't use it as a threat, I'll just tell them I'm dissatisfied with the resolution. However I think I would be ill prepared if I didn't know what options I had before me to use (this is where most of the people here have been very helpful).
I find it strange how you think I should keep the car with me and be there anytime anyone else is, basically trusting no one, yet you think I'm being hasty, and need to relax, let the system work, in essence trusting that things and people will work out.
I'm sorry if I sound like I'm attacking you, or being defensive, but I think I'm responding to your questions. I have appreciated everybody's posting on this thread. Also, enjoyed this discourse, I just wish it was about my busted car, but talking about the pros and cons of going to Asheville. Thanks everyone.
Chris
The only reason I wrote about the oil cap incident is to give background information about the two dealers involved. The one that I bought the car from and who performed the oil change and the one that found the source of the rattling noise and was able to fix the problem. Some people might have wondered why I changed servicing at one dealer and went to the other dealer. Some might ask why I had my oil changed at 2500 miles. It would just be easier to give the whole background than little bits and pieces as people ask for them or are curious. I don't think the loose cap is related to the engine problem at all. Maybe indirectly, since that is the reason I got my oil changed, which changed the oil filter, which is under suspicion as the cause.
The oil level was fine when I put the generic cap on and it was fine after the oil change. In my opinion the oil level was fine up until Saturday (day before it seized), last time I checked it. The generic cap was on only as long as it took for the dealer to order a new one (I didn't really understand your line of questioning there).
Addressing the crease, one thing that I think could be a possibility is that they overtorqued it. I assume the spec is hand tight, but maybe a service tech. used a wrench on it, overtorquing it, deforming it in the process, causing a pin hole leak. No other damage to the oil filter or surrounding components and I didn't hear any noises that signaled it was struck by something.
To be honest, I have no idea what happened. I heard the tapping when the car had oil which is consistent with #4 cylinder problem. Car no longer has any oil which is obviously consistent with a bad oil filter. It would be nice to know, and to let you all know, and Honda know what happened, but my major concern is getting the car fixed and in a timely manner. I'm trying to do this at the lowest level and let the process work. Service manager can't really give the go ahead for this work, so I have to wait for the district guy. Which I am. Once he and the insurance guy have looked at the car and done their bit, I'll talk to them and see if I need to raise it up the next level. I'm not threatening anyone. If I decided to use the BBB, I won't use it as a threat, I'll just tell them I'm dissatisfied with the resolution. However I think I would be ill prepared if I didn't know what options I had before me to use (this is where most of the people here have been very helpful).
I find it strange how you think I should keep the car with me and be there anytime anyone else is, basically trusting no one, yet you think I'm being hasty, and need to relax, let the system work, in essence trusting that things and people will work out.
I'm sorry if I sound like I'm attacking you, or being defensive, but I think I'm responding to your questions. I have appreciated everybody's posting on this thread. Also, enjoyed this discourse, I just wish it was about my busted car, but talking about the pros and cons of going to Asheville. Thanks everyone.
Chris
04-02-2001, 02:48 PM
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I feel extremely frustrated right now after talking to people from the two dealerships, the district service manager, my insurance and Honda costumer hotline. All I want to say is argghhh, but I need to keep my composure here.
First off, there are two ways I can write the events, with the official or unofficial quotes. Official being I cannot confirm nor deny... but it looks possible that this caused that. Or the unofficial being that he told me that he thinks this caused that. I'll go with the unofficial approach since all the official crap is going to take to long to write:
I start the afternoon with a call from the district manager and he tells me that after his inspection, he agrees with the service manager from David Michael that the oil filter is probably the cause of the problem. And either it was a damaged filter that should have never been used or it was damaged while installing. The damage does not look like it is consistent with damamged that would have occurred while driving. (To me, I'm thinking he, as a representative from American Honda is not accepting responsibility, but he seems fairly convinced that all blame points in one direction. Not all bad).
But I had a hard time dealing with the chain of command. Being in the military, it is very easy, we always report to someone, there is slesyd someone above us. Granted we may have different chain of command for different situations (operational COC, administrative COC, joint, etc...), but given a situation, I know who I need to report to, and I know who others report directly to. With Honda, it seems to be very different. Each dealer (with their respective service department) is their own entity and even though there is a district service manager who "is over" them, he accepts no responsibilty for what they do and has no direct power over them. To get to the point, the district manager does not feel that is a case for American Honda to fix or get involved in.
Ok, the next call I got was from my insurance representative. He echoed what the service manager said about the source of the problem. Basically taking him out of the circle. He also said that he talked to other technicians who had looked at the car, and they felt the same way. He said he was the third person to look at the car today. The same guy had rolled it in and out for the district guy, then for the other dealership to look at, and the third time, for him. Hmmm... so where was the call from the other dealership...
At around 3:30, I get my third call. This was from the assistant service manager at the other dealership, the guy who looked at the car. He said they (he discussed it with the other people from his dealership who didn't even look at the car) do not feel they are responsible. They do not feel the damage to the oil filter is consistent with improper installation. The tools they use to install the oil filter would not damage the oil filter in such a way. Also if they did do any damage, the symptoms would have presented themselves earlier. Since the oil change was 10 months ago, it was too long ago. They do not care that the car has only run 2000-2500 miles in that time. They feel, it is in my best interest (more likely theirs), if I call my insurance company. If not able to get my insurance company to pay for it, I would have to go through theirs (and probably their lawyers). I told them the insurance co has already looked at it, and disagrees with his assessment. So I gave them his #, and he is supposed to call them.
I next called my insurance guy, left him a message to see if I could get his assessment in writing.
Then I called the district guy, to tell him of the other dealership's story. At this point, I'm still dumbfounded by what his role is as a district service manager and why he cannot tell the dealership they are wrong and need to do something about it. I try to get him to do something or at least see if I can get him to put his assessment in writing. He can't because he only came down to help the service manager, and wasn't sent by American Honda to examine something, so there is nothing to report. However if I called the customer hotline and they directed him to inspect the car and make an assessment, he would have to generate a report to send back to them.
So that made my choice of next calls pretty easy... to the Honda customer support line. The rep was helpful in his personal advice to me, but when it came to what he could do for me, from an official standpoint, absolutely nothing. He was reluctant to take my complaint because he knew how it is going to end up, he takes my complaint about the dealership, the dealership either doesn't respond or just says I'm lieing and that is the end of it. He can't direct the district manager to do anything, so I can't get his report written up. He was nice, even if, I admit, I was a bit snipy (not rude, but short on patience) at him. He took my complaint and said he'll get back to me if anything comes of it. His prediction is that it will end with a civil suit and that I need a lawyer. BBB is also another good avenue.
In my opinion, un-official pressure from the district service manager might be the key. I do not want to have to hire a lawyer to get my car fixed. I may also step it up one more level, to the regional guy. I'm not sure how he can help, and he has no official duty to help me, but when high-up exec hears about problems from one of their underlings, hopefully he is eager to fix to the problem. What do you think, S2klisa, Barry, Rowland? The fact no one is willing to examine the engine to see if there is a manufacturer's defect is hurting me in getting American Honda to help. However, IMO, a bad service dealer is a bad reflection on all of Honda and they should do there best to help. The last step I would use is one of the investigative reporters/ consumer protectors from a news station. Obviously that is a lot of bad press for all of Honda, not just the one dealership. I don't want to have to do that, and gladly I feel I am still a ways before trying to examine that route.
My goal is to get my car fixed and at a level, that is consistent with a $35k car that has under 5000 miles on it. I am not trying to convince others that Honda is bad or even that this one dealership is bad. I'm putting out information so people can be more informed. I just think it is unfortunate that this has definitely tarnished my opinion of Honda service. I've been happy with my 1991 Accord (that's what I'm driving now) and I thought Honda was the ideal in service and reliability. This episode will no doubt have a play in my future car buying decisions.
Right now, my best hope is that the dealership chooses to accept responsibility. However I find it very unlikely to happen in the near future (within the week). On the good side, I received my S2000 book today and saw heartbreakers over the weekend, to cure my S2000 fix for now. Well, until I hear something more...
Chris
P.S. If anyone from corporate Honda, is on this board or is monitoring this board, I invite you to email me with your comments.
First off, there are two ways I can write the events, with the official or unofficial quotes. Official being I cannot confirm nor deny... but it looks possible that this caused that. Or the unofficial being that he told me that he thinks this caused that. I'll go with the unofficial approach since all the official crap is going to take to long to write:
I start the afternoon with a call from the district manager and he tells me that after his inspection, he agrees with the service manager from David Michael that the oil filter is probably the cause of the problem. And either it was a damaged filter that should have never been used or it was damaged while installing. The damage does not look like it is consistent with damamged that would have occurred while driving. (To me, I'm thinking he, as a representative from American Honda is not accepting responsibility, but he seems fairly convinced that all blame points in one direction. Not all bad).
But I had a hard time dealing with the chain of command. Being in the military, it is very easy, we always report to someone, there is slesyd someone above us. Granted we may have different chain of command for different situations (operational COC, administrative COC, joint, etc...), but given a situation, I know who I need to report to, and I know who others report directly to. With Honda, it seems to be very different. Each dealer (with their respective service department) is their own entity and even though there is a district service manager who "is over" them, he accepts no responsibilty for what they do and has no direct power over them. To get to the point, the district manager does not feel that is a case for American Honda to fix or get involved in.
Ok, the next call I got was from my insurance representative. He echoed what the service manager said about the source of the problem. Basically taking him out of the circle. He also said that he talked to other technicians who had looked at the car, and they felt the same way. He said he was the third person to look at the car today. The same guy had rolled it in and out for the district guy, then for the other dealership to look at, and the third time, for him. Hmmm... so where was the call from the other dealership...
At around 3:30, I get my third call. This was from the assistant service manager at the other dealership, the guy who looked at the car. He said they (he discussed it with the other people from his dealership who didn't even look at the car) do not feel they are responsible. They do not feel the damage to the oil filter is consistent with improper installation. The tools they use to install the oil filter would not damage the oil filter in such a way. Also if they did do any damage, the symptoms would have presented themselves earlier. Since the oil change was 10 months ago, it was too long ago. They do not care that the car has only run 2000-2500 miles in that time. They feel, it is in my best interest (more likely theirs), if I call my insurance company. If not able to get my insurance company to pay for it, I would have to go through theirs (and probably their lawyers). I told them the insurance co has already looked at it, and disagrees with his assessment. So I gave them his #, and he is supposed to call them.
I next called my insurance guy, left him a message to see if I could get his assessment in writing.
Then I called the district guy, to tell him of the other dealership's story. At this point, I'm still dumbfounded by what his role is as a district service manager and why he cannot tell the dealership they are wrong and need to do something about it. I try to get him to do something or at least see if I can get him to put his assessment in writing. He can't because he only came down to help the service manager, and wasn't sent by American Honda to examine something, so there is nothing to report. However if I called the customer hotline and they directed him to inspect the car and make an assessment, he would have to generate a report to send back to them.
So that made my choice of next calls pretty easy... to the Honda customer support line. The rep was helpful in his personal advice to me, but when it came to what he could do for me, from an official standpoint, absolutely nothing. He was reluctant to take my complaint because he knew how it is going to end up, he takes my complaint about the dealership, the dealership either doesn't respond or just says I'm lieing and that is the end of it. He can't direct the district manager to do anything, so I can't get his report written up. He was nice, even if, I admit, I was a bit snipy (not rude, but short on patience) at him. He took my complaint and said he'll get back to me if anything comes of it. His prediction is that it will end with a civil suit and that I need a lawyer. BBB is also another good avenue.
In my opinion, un-official pressure from the district service manager might be the key. I do not want to have to hire a lawyer to get my car fixed. I may also step it up one more level, to the regional guy. I'm not sure how he can help, and he has no official duty to help me, but when high-up exec hears about problems from one of their underlings, hopefully he is eager to fix to the problem. What do you think, S2klisa, Barry, Rowland? The fact no one is willing to examine the engine to see if there is a manufacturer's defect is hurting me in getting American Honda to help. However, IMO, a bad service dealer is a bad reflection on all of Honda and they should do there best to help. The last step I would use is one of the investigative reporters/ consumer protectors from a news station. Obviously that is a lot of bad press for all of Honda, not just the one dealership. I don't want to have to do that, and gladly I feel I am still a ways before trying to examine that route.
My goal is to get my car fixed and at a level, that is consistent with a $35k car that has under 5000 miles on it. I am not trying to convince others that Honda is bad or even that this one dealership is bad. I'm putting out information so people can be more informed. I just think it is unfortunate that this has definitely tarnished my opinion of Honda service. I've been happy with my 1991 Accord (that's what I'm driving now) and I thought Honda was the ideal in service and reliability. This episode will no doubt have a play in my future car buying decisions.
Right now, my best hope is that the dealership chooses to accept responsibility. However I find it very unlikely to happen in the near future (within the week). On the good side, I received my S2000 book today and saw heartbreakers over the weekend, to cure my S2000 fix for now. Well, until I hear something more...
Chris
P.S. If anyone from corporate Honda, is on this board or is monitoring this board, I invite you to email me with your comments.
04-02-2001, 05:18 PM
#46
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If I were you I would go out and buy a micro cass. recorder (the kind that records automatically upon detecting sound) and maybee you will get lucky and hear something like the truth as to what they think really caused your problem. Or you might hear them bad talking you or the design of the car wich might be useful in court,or you might hear them altering your car to hide the truth.
You could hide it in open ended sunglass case, news paper, hat, or maybee above your sun viser. Too bad you live so far away. You would also need the kind of recorder that stops recording when it detects no sound for a while. If your car is in the bay, the sounds of air impacts and other things might be an issue. I feel for ya... good luck!
You could hide it in open ended sunglass case, news paper, hat, or maybee above your sun viser. Too bad you live so far away. You would also need the kind of recorder that stops recording when it detects no sound for a while. If your car is in the bay, the sounds of air impacts and other things might be an issue. I feel for ya... good luck!
04-02-2001, 05:30 PM
#47
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Oh my gosh, Chris.
First thing you need to do is find out why the engine seized. It could have seized from (1)engine manufacturing defect, (2)oil filter manufacturing defect, (3)oil filter installation defect, (4) oil filter road hazard damage, or (5) owner negligence in not checking the oil. It seems like (4) and (5) are ruled out by what you found out today.
You might need an independent mechanic not affiliated with Honda or a third Honda dealership or a conference inspection by the insurance company's mechanic, AHM's mechanic and the first dealer's mechanic.
I think we all agree that neither you nor the second dealership nor the insurance company is responsible for paying. It comes down to either the first dealership for faulty installation or the engine's manufacturer AHM or the oil filter's manufacturer--again AHM unless I missed something.
I've never been in this situation. I know my next step would be to contact my most trusted local lawyer and give him a quick, accurate description of the situation and ask for advice. A good lawyer will help you know when to use an attorney and when not.
Perhaps a phone call from, Perry Mason, Esq. to your local dealer's owner and to AHM's corporate headquarters will get you some progress.
Also, I'd talk with s2klisa on the phone, if she will, and get her hints and phone numbers on who to talk to at AHM. It sounds like AHM did WAY MORE for her than was called for. I think AHM should assist you in finding out who was at fault and then should assist you in collecting from whomever is at fault.
Of course, if there is any possibility that you are at fault (I don't see how), that might come out in further investigation and you might be stuck with legal expenses on top of repair expenses.
My heart goes out to you. It makes me feel sick to the stomach. I hope things look better.
At least, it is only $10,000 +/- at stake, not someone's life or career or marriage. That is the only silver lining I can find.
Barry---wishing I could do more.
First thing you need to do is find out why the engine seized. It could have seized from (1)engine manufacturing defect, (2)oil filter manufacturing defect, (3)oil filter installation defect, (4) oil filter road hazard damage, or (5) owner negligence in not checking the oil. It seems like (4) and (5) are ruled out by what you found out today.
You might need an independent mechanic not affiliated with Honda or a third Honda dealership or a conference inspection by the insurance company's mechanic, AHM's mechanic and the first dealer's mechanic.
I think we all agree that neither you nor the second dealership nor the insurance company is responsible for paying. It comes down to either the first dealership for faulty installation or the engine's manufacturer AHM or the oil filter's manufacturer--again AHM unless I missed something.
I've never been in this situation. I know my next step would be to contact my most trusted local lawyer and give him a quick, accurate description of the situation and ask for advice. A good lawyer will help you know when to use an attorney and when not.
Perhaps a phone call from, Perry Mason, Esq. to your local dealer's owner and to AHM's corporate headquarters will get you some progress.
Also, I'd talk with s2klisa on the phone, if she will, and get her hints and phone numbers on who to talk to at AHM. It sounds like AHM did WAY MORE for her than was called for. I think AHM should assist you in finding out who was at fault and then should assist you in collecting from whomever is at fault.
Of course, if there is any possibility that you are at fault (I don't see how), that might come out in further investigation and you might be stuck with legal expenses on top of repair expenses.
My heart goes out to you. It makes me feel sick to the stomach. I hope things look better.
At least, it is only $10,000 +/- at stake, not someone's life or career or marriage. That is the only silver lining I can find.
Barry---wishing I could do more.
04-02-2001, 07:19 PM
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Hey my man...
Im from chicago and at about 4000 miles my car started making a knocking noise...
they replaced my engine no problem... without any sort of definitive answer as to what exactly was wrong with it..maybe a cracked rod, but.. .those were ok...
maybe a bent valve.. but no.... they didnt know what else to check and just replaced it..
my theory is the oil pickup in the pan doesnt get enough oil when you rail that thing around the corners, and then the 4th cylinder gets scuffed and beat up...
--
where do i find the number on my car?
Im from chicago and at about 4000 miles my car started making a knocking noise...
they replaced my engine no problem... without any sort of definitive answer as to what exactly was wrong with it..maybe a cracked rod, but.. .those were ok...
maybe a bent valve.. but no.... they didnt know what else to check and just replaced it..
my theory is the oil pickup in the pan doesnt get enough oil when you rail that thing around the corners, and then the 4th cylinder gets scuffed and beat up...
--
where do i find the number on my car?
04-02-2001, 08:23 PM
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Here are a couple of responses to your response.
I'll preface this by suggesting that you write down, in a "diary," as much as you can remember about everything that's happened during the whole episode, and I would make it very obvious you're taking notes whenever you have a meeting with anyone from this point forward. BTW, doing something such as hiding a tape recorder in your car or on your person likely would just get you in trouble (or labeled as a smart a**) and weaken your position.
First, regarding the generic oil filler cap. If that cap allowed oil to be lost, that would give someone on the "other" side another reason to blame you for contributing to the problem. I've seen an engine blow more than a quart of oil out the filler hole in just a few miles. I have no reason to doubt you when you say the oil level always was okay, but it would be your word against theirs in court
I'll preface this by suggesting that you write down, in a "diary," as much as you can remember about everything that's happened during the whole episode, and I would make it very obvious you're taking notes whenever you have a meeting with anyone from this point forward. BTW, doing something such as hiding a tape recorder in your car or on your person likely would just get you in trouble (or labeled as a smart a**) and weaken your position.
First, regarding the generic oil filler cap. If that cap allowed oil to be lost, that would give someone on the "other" side another reason to blame you for contributing to the problem. I've seen an engine blow more than a quart of oil out the filler hole in just a few miles. I have no reason to doubt you when you say the oil level always was okay, but it would be your word against theirs in court