Care and feeding of a "driven" or modded S2000 - Existing banter, a continuation.
04-21-2004, 12:21 PM
#1
Care and feeding of a "driven" or modded S2000 - Existing banter, a continuation.
So as not to hijack this thread:
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.p...&postid=3791502
I am continuing the banter between myself and "RED MX5" here, so please scroll down that thread to get the background before continuing here. Thanks.
This thread will not be for everyone, so if you don't like a lot of reading, move along. And since this is not so much a technical exercise but more of a philosophical one, I'm not putting it in "Under the Hood" (yet).
There has been some concern of late by some members here that the S2000, especial when "exercised" hard or when modded to produce more output, can be problematic or unreliable. I was asked to comment on some of the things I do to "keep on top of" my car's health and well being.
Some things are obvious and we can all do;
I'm talking things like checking the engine oil often, as well as all engine bay fluids to make sure they are topped up and their condition is within reasonable limits. Things like air filter condition, tire pressures, etc should be checked without someone baby sitting you to do it. This is common sense and should be part of every owner's "to do" list, so I won't dwell on these sorts of things here.
The not so obvious things might be checking the spark plugs for condition and torque - a loose spark plug is NOT this car's friend nor is one that shows signs of poor A/F ratio. I try to do this every month or so and I'll check them if ever I "sense" something might be odd. This is a high revving, high output engine, with lots of moving parts that can vibrate considerably. We, as the occupants are normally shielded from this vibration by the dampening that Honda has provided. However, things like spark plugs may not benefit from this dampening and can come loose if they weren't put in correctly in the first place.
Then there are things like tranny fluid, diff fluid, brake and clutch fluid that most people tend to take for granted. A hard driven car or a modded one (like S/Cd) need to have these components looked at and attended more often that those cars that are simply driven to the store and back on a daily basis. Honda tells us to "look" at these things regularly but does not actually come out and tell us to change "some" of these things at designated times. We have to use some good judgement in implementing such maintenance. The diff fluid is one of those things I've always felt Honda has not emphasized enough and I've always suggested to others to give serious consideration to changing the original fluid out early (less than 2000 miles) to get the break in crud out and then to do it annually if average mileage or more is encountered.
Then there is the most important thing of all, something that is not always as intuitive as reading the owner's manual to see what must be done. I'm talking about "feeling" the way the car drives. Use all your senses to obtain the feedback of what your car is trying tell you whenever you drive it. Not to get people to over-react but rather to give you a "jab" to "listen" to what your car is saying to you and to PAY ATTENTION when it "talks". From these signs and cues, you need to take some action to tract down what might be needing a look. It is from these "looks" that we can (most of the time) forestall and prevent something far worse from happening. We tend to blisfully go about driving this car thinking that it is bulletproof because of its family heritage and become complacent. Sure it's a Honda but it definately is not your average Civic CX or base Accord. Having said that, any bets that if you drive the crap out of your CX without due attention to its health, that something on it will come loose, too?
Anyway, I'm not sure if this topic will go very far but at least, it might be of interest to a few.
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.p...&postid=3791502
I am continuing the banter between myself and "RED MX5" here, so please scroll down that thread to get the background before continuing here. Thanks.
This thread will not be for everyone, so if you don't like a lot of reading, move along. And since this is not so much a technical exercise but more of a philosophical one, I'm not putting it in "Under the Hood" (yet).
There has been some concern of late by some members here that the S2000, especial when "exercised" hard or when modded to produce more output, can be problematic or unreliable. I was asked to comment on some of the things I do to "keep on top of" my car's health and well being.
Some things are obvious and we can all do;
I'm talking things like checking the engine oil often, as well as all engine bay fluids to make sure they are topped up and their condition is within reasonable limits. Things like air filter condition, tire pressures, etc should be checked without someone baby sitting you to do it. This is common sense and should be part of every owner's "to do" list, so I won't dwell on these sorts of things here.
The not so obvious things might be checking the spark plugs for condition and torque - a loose spark plug is NOT this car's friend nor is one that shows signs of poor A/F ratio. I try to do this every month or so and I'll check them if ever I "sense" something might be odd. This is a high revving, high output engine, with lots of moving parts that can vibrate considerably. We, as the occupants are normally shielded from this vibration by the dampening that Honda has provided. However, things like spark plugs may not benefit from this dampening and can come loose if they weren't put in correctly in the first place.
Then there are things like tranny fluid, diff fluid, brake and clutch fluid that most people tend to take for granted. A hard driven car or a modded one (like S/Cd) need to have these components looked at and attended more often that those cars that are simply driven to the store and back on a daily basis. Honda tells us to "look" at these things regularly but does not actually come out and tell us to change "some" of these things at designated times. We have to use some good judgement in implementing such maintenance. The diff fluid is one of those things I've always felt Honda has not emphasized enough and I've always suggested to others to give serious consideration to changing the original fluid out early (less than 2000 miles) to get the break in crud out and then to do it annually if average mileage or more is encountered.
Then there is the most important thing of all, something that is not always as intuitive as reading the owner's manual to see what must be done. I'm talking about "feeling" the way the car drives. Use all your senses to obtain the feedback of what your car is trying tell you whenever you drive it. Not to get people to over-react but rather to give you a "jab" to "listen" to what your car is saying to you and to PAY ATTENTION when it "talks". From these signs and cues, you need to take some action to tract down what might be needing a look. It is from these "looks" that we can (most of the time) forestall and prevent something far worse from happening. We tend to blisfully go about driving this car thinking that it is bulletproof because of its family heritage and become complacent. Sure it's a Honda but it definately is not your average Civic CX or base Accord. Having said that, any bets that if you drive the crap out of your CX without due attention to its health, that something on it will come loose, too?
Anyway, I'm not sure if this topic will go very far but at least, it might be of interest to a few.
04-21-2004, 01:26 PM
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Thanks xviper. This is very useful to those of us that care.
I just ordered some IK-24 plugs and I was wondering what the gap setting should be for an 'NA' motor. I was thinking somewhere in the 0.040-0.045 range.
I just ordered some IK-24 plugs and I was wondering what the gap setting should be for an 'NA' motor. I was thinking somewhere in the 0.040-0.045 range.
04-21-2004, 03:02 PM
#6
Originally posted by bigpurp
How often do you recommend changing out the MTF? I know the manual says something like every 100K miles.
How often do you recommend changing out the MTF? I know the manual says something like every 100K miles.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Asura
Thanks xviper.
04-21-2004, 03:56 PM
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Thanks XViper,
As a matter of course I always check tire pressures and look the car over before a drive. I also check the under-hood fluid levels at the first stop. I also keep the radio turned off at all times, because I prefer to listen to the music the car makes. I prefer that music because it's pleasing, and because our cars really do talk to us.
Based on your advice I'll be checking the plugs (reading and tightening) every weekend. Knowing what the plugs look like always has given me a warm-fuzzy.
Now, what's your take on oil analysis? I've been talking with my local LE rep, and getting the engine, trans, and diff lubes analyzed periodically looks like a good way to spot pending problems. Have you tried it? Think it's worthwhile?
In an attempt to keep the (harmless) varnish buildup to a minimum, I'm going to try changing the motor oil every 3k miles. Even if the trans is still shifting well at 6k miles I'm thinking that changing it every second oil change is probably cheap insurance. As for the diff fluid, I still haven't got a good feel for change interval, but as long as the car is on the rack it's cheap enough to change it out every second oil change. Do you think this is totally excessive and anal?
What about additional instrumentation? A neat gauge installation looks like a major pain in this car, and I'm not sure that oil pressure and temp plus A/F ratio would be that useful. However, without an oil temp gauge, how do I know if I need an oil cooler? The only motor I ever lost due to oil starvation died a violent death before the oil pressure gauge needle could even move, but the "idiot light" did flash, at the same time that the bearings went dry and the motor went south. (Long story, but the oil was sloshing away from the pickup during hard cornering, and a good gulp of air at high engine speed proved Murphy's Law.) Anyway, I'm wondering if simply checking the OBD2 logs every week might not be just as effective as gauges. It will give me a clue as to the overall A/F ratio (with the long and short-term correction values), and I'm just not sure that monitoring oil pressure and temp buys us that much. I do want to rig up a thermometer to check diff temps, but that can be a temporary setup. XV, what's your take on additional gauges in the S2000? Worthwhile? Any tips on a way to make the installation look professional?
Hopefully I'm not the only one who is anal enough to be worried about such things. In any event, I most certainly appreciate the benefit of your experience.
Thanks,
RED MX5
As a matter of course I always check tire pressures and look the car over before a drive. I also check the under-hood fluid levels at the first stop. I also keep the radio turned off at all times, because I prefer to listen to the music the car makes. I prefer that music because it's pleasing, and because our cars really do talk to us.
Based on your advice I'll be checking the plugs (reading and tightening) every weekend. Knowing what the plugs look like always has given me a warm-fuzzy.
Now, what's your take on oil analysis? I've been talking with my local LE rep, and getting the engine, trans, and diff lubes analyzed periodically looks like a good way to spot pending problems. Have you tried it? Think it's worthwhile?
In an attempt to keep the (harmless) varnish buildup to a minimum, I'm going to try changing the motor oil every 3k miles. Even if the trans is still shifting well at 6k miles I'm thinking that changing it every second oil change is probably cheap insurance. As for the diff fluid, I still haven't got a good feel for change interval, but as long as the car is on the rack it's cheap enough to change it out every second oil change. Do you think this is totally excessive and anal?
What about additional instrumentation? A neat gauge installation looks like a major pain in this car, and I'm not sure that oil pressure and temp plus A/F ratio would be that useful. However, without an oil temp gauge, how do I know if I need an oil cooler?
The only motor I ever lost due to oil starvation died a violent death before the oil pressure gauge needle could even move, but the "idiot light" did flash, at the same time that the bearings went dry and the motor went south. (Long story, but the oil was sloshing away from the pickup during hard cornering, and a good gulp of air at high engine speed proved Murphy's Law.) Anyway, I'm wondering if simply checking the OBD2 logs every week might not be just as effective as gauges. It will give me a clue as to the overall A/F ratio (with the long and short-term correction values), and I'm just not sure that monitoring oil pressure and temp buys us that much. I do want to rig up a thermometer to check diff temps, but that can be a temporary setup. XV, what's your take on additional gauges in the S2000? Worthwhile? Any tips on a way to make the installation look professional?Hopefully I'm not the only one who is anal enough to be worried about such things. In any event, I most certainly appreciate the benefit of your experience.
Thanks,
RED MX5
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04-21-2004, 04:41 PM
#8
Checking the plugs every weekend (unless you track the car on weekends) might be a bit much, but suit yourself. I think once you gain the confidence after a few checks and know that they are staying tight and looking good, you'll be able to comfortably stretch that out somewhat.
Yes, oil analysis is very worth while, especially if one modifies the car. You need to know how the modifications are affecting the health of the car and such analysis is a key component in this "check up". I have done oil analysis on my engine oil and my diff fluid under the conditions that I currently run (S/C and 4.44 gears). After a couple of diff analysis, I'm confident that the fluid I'm using and the kind of driving I do and the interval of my changes, that I don't really need to do them all the time. I'll only do it again if the "feel" goes off. I'm running Mobil 1 synthetic in both the engine and the diff (with their corresponding fluids of course). I change every 3K miles for engine oil and annually (about 10K miles) on the diff. If you are going to be anal about any fluid changes, the diff fluid should be the one. The S2000 diff is quite tiny for what it does and I believe it can be "maxed" out quite easily under some kinds of driving conditions. The fluid may be the only thing standing between continued service and terminal ailment.
Now ........... gauges? This is such a personal thing, I can't really dictate this to anyone, only tell of my own preferences. The installation is no worse than with any other car I've done gauges on. In fact, if you want to see, I've got 2 DIY threads stickied at the top of Under the Hood under "Common Asked Questions ..................... ". Go have a look. I've done Autometer for myself and Defi for another owner. You'll see lots of pics too.
I chose water temp because the stock bar graph really doesn't tell you much and it's nice to know when the engine is reaching into abnormally high temps. I use it to tell me when I should turn on the A/C as this activates the second fan and will immediately reduce the temps by as much as 20 degrees in the heat of the summer. I also elected for the oil pressure, since we don't have a proper stock gauge. This too, is good to know as the pressure will go way down at idle when hot. Since the supercharger needs oil to keep the bearings safe, I can blip the throttle a bit to keep the pressure up. I didn't go for oil temp as I have found in most other cars that oil temp seems to correlate well with water temp. It's usually about 20 to 30 degrees higher than water temp and since we have a water jacket around the oil filter line, any increase in oil temp will be reflected in water temp. Of course, this will not give you any indications of oil temp spikes or surges. It's a chance I chose to take. Then I have a boost gauge. This is more of a toy but does serve to tell me when the belt needs tightening. I also have an narrow band A/F gauge. Some say it is not very useful but I beg to differ. All I want to know is that during WOT in the upper reaches of the rpm range, my A/F is NOT lean and this gauge tells me this. I'm satisfied with this information.
Of course, with power mods like a S/C or a turbo, one has to take some responsibility and see to it that if the car does not have the new oiljet banjo bolts, to put them in to increase the margin of safety.
One also has to understand certain aspects of why the car has some of the features it has. For example, why do you suppose the diff casing has fins on it? For cooling perhaps?
I think so and I believe diff temp is very important. Why do you suppose big rigs sometimes have diff temp gauges? In using common sense, one should know that if you have just driven in such a way as to max out the temp in the diff, maybe this would not be a good time to do a clutch dump? Or, if you've just done one, maybe give it a bit of cool down time and distance before doing another one?
Yes, oil analysis is very worth while, especially if one modifies the car. You need to know how the modifications are affecting the health of the car and such analysis is a key component in this "check up". I have done oil analysis on my engine oil and my diff fluid under the conditions that I currently run (S/C and 4.44 gears). After a couple of diff analysis, I'm confident that the fluid I'm using and the kind of driving I do and the interval of my changes, that I don't really need to do them all the time. I'll only do it again if the "feel" goes off. I'm running Mobil 1 synthetic in both the engine and the diff (with their corresponding fluids of course). I change every 3K miles for engine oil and annually (about 10K miles) on the diff. If you are going to be anal about any fluid changes, the diff fluid should be the one. The S2000 diff is quite tiny for what it does and I believe it can be "maxed" out quite easily under some kinds of driving conditions. The fluid may be the only thing standing between continued service and terminal ailment.
Now ........... gauges? This is such a personal thing, I can't really dictate this to anyone, only tell of my own preferences. The installation is no worse than with any other car I've done gauges on. In fact, if you want to see, I've got 2 DIY threads stickied at the top of Under the Hood under "Common Asked Questions ..................... ". Go have a look. I've done Autometer for myself and Defi for another owner. You'll see lots of pics too.
I chose water temp because the stock bar graph really doesn't tell you much and it's nice to know when the engine is reaching into abnormally high temps. I use it to tell me when I should turn on the A/C as this activates the second fan and will immediately reduce the temps by as much as 20 degrees in the heat of the summer. I also elected for the oil pressure, since we don't have a proper stock gauge. This too, is good to know as the pressure will go way down at idle when hot. Since the supercharger needs oil to keep the bearings safe, I can blip the throttle a bit to keep the pressure up. I didn't go for oil temp as I have found in most other cars that oil temp seems to correlate well with water temp. It's usually about 20 to 30 degrees higher than water temp and since we have a water jacket around the oil filter line, any increase in oil temp will be reflected in water temp. Of course, this will not give you any indications of oil temp spikes or surges. It's a chance I chose to take. Then I have a boost gauge. This is more of a toy but does serve to tell me when the belt needs tightening. I also have an narrow band A/F gauge. Some say it is not very useful but I beg to differ. All I want to know is that during WOT in the upper reaches of the rpm range, my A/F is NOT lean and this gauge tells me this. I'm satisfied with this information.
Of course, with power mods like a S/C or a turbo, one has to take some responsibility and see to it that if the car does not have the new oiljet banjo bolts, to put them in to increase the margin of safety.
One also has to understand certain aspects of why the car has some of the features it has. For example, why do you suppose the diff casing has fins on it? For cooling perhaps?
I think so and I believe diff temp is very important. Why do you suppose big rigs sometimes have diff temp gauges? In using common sense, one should know that if you have just driven in such a way as to max out the temp in the diff, maybe this would not be a good time to do a clutch dump? Or, if you've just done one, maybe give it a bit of cool down time and distance before doing another one?
04-21-2004, 07:11 PM
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XViper,
Somehow I managed to miss a BUNCH of stuff in the "Under the Hood" Q&A!
I'm not sure what I'll end up doing about gauges (I'd rather have them in the dash than on the pillar), but when I took the Miata out yesterday it sure was nice having a set of "real" gauges to keep track of things.
Diff temps are a real concern, because the LSD gets a real workout; that's why I want to hook up a temporary thermometer, so I can find out just how hot it gets during events on really hot days. Even though my car is near-stock, all the diff hand clutch horror stories have me reluctant to launch the car really hard, but I'll be more confidant if I get some temps. I'm also going to go ahead and order the test bottles and pump for getting the oil analysis done. The analysis will clue me in if my launch technique is doing anything nasty inside the diff. Hopefully my nose will tell me if I'm burning the clutch (I know the smell, and will recognize it, even though I've never done it myself). Do you think any of the other members might be interested in seeing the diff or other oil analysis reports that I get with a near-stock setup during aggressive driving and autocrossing?
BTW, current plan is to upgrade the oil jets during the next oil change. Seems to me that this is something anyone who drives the car hard should do or have done.
I did actually launch the car hard enough this evening to lay a short patch of rubber (on some hot, low-traction asphalt), but I'm still a long way from having the confidence in the car/drive-line to launch the way the guys do at the Nationals.
I was planning to use Mobile 1 in the motor, but in the diff? What weight (in the diff)? I assume it's a multi? What about your trans? The MTF seems to be working very nicely in my gearbox.
I can't thank you enough for all the help and support. Guess I'll have to upgrade to a gold membership. (How can I upgrade?) S2ki is well worth every penny.
Thanks,
RED
Somehow I managed to miss a BUNCH of stuff in the "Under the Hood" Q&A!
I'm not sure what I'll end up doing about gauges (I'd rather have them in the dash than on the pillar), but when I took the Miata out yesterday it sure was nice having a set of "real" gauges to keep track of things.
Diff temps are a real concern, because the LSD gets a real workout; that's why I want to hook up a temporary thermometer, so I can find out just how hot it gets during events on really hot days. Even though my car is near-stock, all the diff hand clutch horror stories have me reluctant to launch the car really hard, but I'll be more confidant if I get some temps. I'm also going to go ahead and order the test bottles and pump for getting the oil analysis done. The analysis will clue me in if my launch technique is doing anything nasty inside the diff. Hopefully my nose will tell me if I'm burning the clutch (I know the smell, and will recognize it, even though I've never done it myself). Do you think any of the other members might be interested in seeing the diff or other oil analysis reports that I get with a near-stock setup during aggressive driving and autocrossing?
BTW, current plan is to upgrade the oil jets during the next oil change. Seems to me that this is something anyone who drives the car hard should do or have done.
I did actually launch the car hard enough this evening to lay a short patch of rubber (on some hot, low-traction asphalt), but I'm still a long way from having the confidence in the car/drive-line to launch the way the guys do at the Nationals.
I was planning to use Mobile 1 in the motor, but in the diff? What weight (in the diff)? I assume it's a multi? What about your trans? The MTF seems to be working very nicely in my gearbox.
I can't thank you enough for all the help and support. Guess I'll have to upgrade to a gold membership. (How can I upgrade?) S2ki is well worth every penny.
Thanks,
RED
