ap2's have 6-10% more hp from 1-8k
06-12-2005, 11:53 AM
#131
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Ok I didn't read all of this thread so I apologize. These threads always get ugly ..
There's a few points I'd like to bring up.
I believe, and I think most people will agree with me here that the AP2s (2.2L version) makes more horsepower than the AP1s. The fact that its using a bigger displacement engine with more torque would indicate that its making more peak horsepower. I wouldn't be surprised if at the crank its putting out something more like 250hp - 260hp.
Why doesn't Honda take advantage of the marketing aspect here? Maybe Honda of America was asked not to because it might upset the Japanese / European market where they still get the F20C. Maybe Honda didn't want the horsepower to be too high on the S2000 (too close to the NSX's horsepower #s?). Whatever the reason, I still think the AP2s are underrated. Why didn't Honda just release the F22C to the rest of the world if its better? I believe many have answered that question in the past that taxes in some European countries and in Japan penalize the size of engines and going from a 2.0L to a 2.2L engine would make the car more expensive. Additionally, I have heard from other members in the world that some countries are getting the F22C other than North America, Greece being one of them (this is just what a Greek s2ki member had said, so I'm not 100% sure this is fact). - EDIT: Maybe I'm mistaken, I just went to www.honda.gr and they are still selling the F20C, so maybe it was another country.
That said, there are a lot of changes to the AP2 chassis that also make it slower. For one, it weighs more. More importantly the 17" rims weigh more. There are a lot of aspects with the AP2 that make it a slower car overall, but its something the 2.2L helps out with since its got the extra torque. I'd be really interested in seeing what kind of 1/4 mile times the AP2s in other parts of the world are running where they still have the F20C. I would imagine the extra weight of the AP2 chassis will make the car slower in the 1/4 mile than the AP2s with the F22C.
Another interesting point is the F22C's extra torque make the car a lot faster from a roll. A 20mph roll on to 80mph will see the AP2 pulling away from an AP1. Quite simply at the lower rpms the F22C has the advantage. Thats not to say that from a dead stop the F22C is faster, I'm just talking about from a roll-on.
Anyways, these kind of arguements have been beaten to death. The fact is that in a race with the AP1 versus the AP2, it will be a driver's race. Both cars run roughly the same times in the 1/4 mile (the variable here being the driver). And unless I see some sort of video with the same (neutral) driver running the 1/4 mile in both cars on the exact same day with the exact same 60' times and the AP2 pulling a faster time, I won't believe that the AP2 is any faster.
In the end, both cars are awesome and you should just grab your keys, push the start button and smile that you own such a fun car.
There's a few points I'd like to bring up.
I believe, and I think most people will agree with me here that the AP2s (2.2L version) makes more horsepower than the AP1s. The fact that its using a bigger displacement engine with more torque would indicate that its making more peak horsepower. I wouldn't be surprised if at the crank its putting out something more like 250hp - 260hp.
Why doesn't Honda take advantage of the marketing aspect here? Maybe Honda of America was asked not to because it might upset the Japanese / European market where they still get the F20C. Maybe Honda didn't want the horsepower to be too high on the S2000 (too close to the NSX's horsepower #s?). Whatever the reason, I still think the AP2s are underrated. Why didn't Honda just release the F22C to the rest of the world if its better? I believe many have answered that question in the past that taxes in some European countries and in Japan penalize the size of engines and going from a 2.0L to a 2.2L engine would make the car more expensive. Additionally, I have heard from other members in the world that some countries are getting the F22C other than North America, Greece being one of them (this is just what a Greek s2ki member had said, so I'm not 100% sure this is fact). - EDIT: Maybe I'm mistaken, I just went to www.honda.gr and they are still selling the F20C, so maybe it was another country.
That said, there are a lot of changes to the AP2 chassis that also make it slower. For one, it weighs more. More importantly the 17" rims weigh more. There are a lot of aspects with the AP2 that make it a slower car overall, but its something the 2.2L helps out with since its got the extra torque. I'd be really interested in seeing what kind of 1/4 mile times the AP2s in other parts of the world are running where they still have the F20C. I would imagine the extra weight of the AP2 chassis will make the car slower in the 1/4 mile than the AP2s with the F22C.
Another interesting point is the F22C's extra torque make the car a lot faster from a roll. A 20mph roll on to 80mph will see the AP2 pulling away from an AP1. Quite simply at the lower rpms the F22C has the advantage. Thats not to say that from a dead stop the F22C is faster, I'm just talking about from a roll-on.
Anyways, these kind of arguements have been beaten to death. The fact is that in a race with the AP1 versus the AP2, it will be a driver's race. Both cars run roughly the same times in the 1/4 mile (the variable here being the driver). And unless I see some sort of video with the same (neutral) driver running the 1/4 mile in both cars on the exact same day with the exact same 60' times and the AP2 pulling a faster time, I won't believe that the AP2 is any faster.
In the end, both cars are awesome and you should just grab your keys, push the start button and smile that you own such a fun car.
06-12-2005, 12:34 PM
#132
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Originally Posted by Wisconsin S2k,Jun 12 2005, 11:59 AM
lol i'm talking street encounters and 1/4 mile. this means most races will be 0-100 or less.
sorry guys, but you can argue all you want.
both cars have/can do 13.6.
given equal drivers, both cars have the same trap speed if they have similar 60' times.
so explain to me how you can argue with the proven 1/4 mile track times and the trap speeds always lining up? you can't. so either show me contradictory proof, otherwise I'm just simply going to continue to repeat this real world proof.
sorry guys, but you can argue all you want.
both cars have/can do 13.6.
given equal drivers, both cars have the same trap speed if they have similar 60' times.
so explain to me how you can argue with the proven 1/4 mile track times and the trap speeds always lining up? you can't. so either show me contradictory proof, otherwise I'm just simply going to continue to repeat this real world proof.
PS. The torque curves do have a different shape in the peek range. The AP1 trails off in a much more pronounced downslope compared to the AP2. The AP2 is very close to linear all the way to redline.
06-12-2005, 03:47 PM
#133
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Originally Posted by jasonw,Jun 12 2005, 02:34 PM
Of course I can explain it! It's a point at which 1 car would temprorarily pass the other... That's why it's limiting your understanding of the big picture. A different interval would produce different results.
i have no idea what you're saying in your post.
06-12-2005, 03:48 PM
#134
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Originally Posted by LiQiCE,Jun 12 2005, 01:53 PM
Ok I didn't read all of this thread so I apologize. These threads always get ugly ..
There's a few points I'd like to bring up.
I believe, and I think most people will agree with me here that the AP2s (2.2L version) makes more horsepower than the AP1s. The fact that its using a bigger displacement engine with more torque would indicate that its making more peak horsepower. I wouldn't be surprised if at the crank its putting out something more like 250hp - 260hp.
Why doesn't Honda take advantage of the marketing aspect here? Maybe Honda of America was asked not to because it might upset the Japanese / European market where they still get the F20C. Maybe Honda didn't want the horsepower to be too high on the S2000 (too close to the NSX's horsepower #s?). Whatever the reason, I still think the AP2s are underrated. Why didn't Honda just release the F22C to the rest of the world if its better? I believe many have answered that question in the past that taxes in some European countries and in Japan penalize the size of engines and going from a 2.0L to a 2.2L engine would make the car more expensive. Additionally, I have heard from other members in the world that some countries are getting the F22C other than North America, Greece being one of them (this is just what a Greek s2ki member had said, so I'm not 100% sure this is fact). - EDIT: Maybe I'm mistaken, I just went to www.honda.gr and they are still selling the F20C, so maybe it was another country.
That said, there are a lot of changes to the AP2 chassis that also make it slower. For one, it weighs more. More importantly the 17" rims weigh more. There are a lot of aspects with the AP2 that make it a slower car overall, but its something the 2.2L helps out with since its got the extra torque. I'd be really interested in seeing what kind of 1/4 mile times the AP2s in other parts of the world are running where they still have the F20C. I would imagine the extra weight of the AP2 chassis will make the car slower in the 1/4 mile than the AP2s with the F22C.
Another interesting point is the F22C's extra torque make the car a lot faster from a roll. A 20mph roll on to 80mph will see the AP2 pulling away from an AP1. Quite simply at the lower rpms the F22C has the advantage. Thats not to say that from a dead stop the F22C is faster, I'm just talking about from a roll-on.
Anyways, these kind of arguements have been beaten to death. The fact is that in a race with the AP1 versus the AP2, it will be a driver's race. Both cars run roughly the same times in the 1/4 mile (the variable here being the driver). And unless I see some sort of video with the same (neutral) driver running the 1/4 mile in both cars on the exact same day with the exact same 60' times and the AP2 pulling a faster time, I won't believe that the AP2 is any faster.
In the end, both cars are awesome and you should just grab your keys, push the start button and smile that you own such a fun car.
There's a few points I'd like to bring up.
I believe, and I think most people will agree with me here that the AP2s (2.2L version) makes more horsepower than the AP1s. The fact that its using a bigger displacement engine with more torque would indicate that its making more peak horsepower. I wouldn't be surprised if at the crank its putting out something more like 250hp - 260hp.
Why doesn't Honda take advantage of the marketing aspect here? Maybe Honda of America was asked not to because it might upset the Japanese / European market where they still get the F20C. Maybe Honda didn't want the horsepower to be too high on the S2000 (too close to the NSX's horsepower #s?). Whatever the reason, I still think the AP2s are underrated. Why didn't Honda just release the F22C to the rest of the world if its better? I believe many have answered that question in the past that taxes in some European countries and in Japan penalize the size of engines and going from a 2.0L to a 2.2L engine would make the car more expensive. Additionally, I have heard from other members in the world that some countries are getting the F22C other than North America, Greece being one of them (this is just what a Greek s2ki member had said, so I'm not 100% sure this is fact). - EDIT: Maybe I'm mistaken, I just went to www.honda.gr and they are still selling the F20C, so maybe it was another country.
That said, there are a lot of changes to the AP2 chassis that also make it slower. For one, it weighs more. More importantly the 17" rims weigh more. There are a lot of aspects with the AP2 that make it a slower car overall, but its something the 2.2L helps out with since its got the extra torque. I'd be really interested in seeing what kind of 1/4 mile times the AP2s in other parts of the world are running where they still have the F20C. I would imagine the extra weight of the AP2 chassis will make the car slower in the 1/4 mile than the AP2s with the F22C.
Another interesting point is the F22C's extra torque make the car a lot faster from a roll. A 20mph roll on to 80mph will see the AP2 pulling away from an AP1. Quite simply at the lower rpms the F22C has the advantage. Thats not to say that from a dead stop the F22C is faster, I'm just talking about from a roll-on.
Anyways, these kind of arguements have been beaten to death. The fact is that in a race with the AP1 versus the AP2, it will be a driver's race. Both cars run roughly the same times in the 1/4 mile (the variable here being the driver). And unless I see some sort of video with the same (neutral) driver running the 1/4 mile in both cars on the exact same day with the exact same 60' times and the AP2 pulling a faster time, I won't believe that the AP2 is any faster.
In the end, both cars are awesome and you should just grab your keys, push the start button and smile that you own such a fun car.
06-12-2005, 04:46 PM
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Personally, I think the 1st gen S2000s are much better. I think they look better and most importantly they will always be faster. Both gens have 240hp and the 2nd gen has only 8 ft-lbs more torque. Off the line the 2nd gen might be slighlty quicker, but if you know how to drive and can stay in the narrow power band of the 1st gen its just as fast, if not faster than the 2nd gen. Most importantly you can add a 2.2-2.5 liter stroke kit for the 1st gen. Since the 1st gen is a 2.0L and the 2nd gen is a 2.2L and because both engines come stock with the same hp and the 2nd gen has only 8 ft-lbs more torque, adding a 2.2 liter stroke kit to the 1st gen will give it more hp and torque than that of the stock 2.2 liter of the 2nd gen. Get it? Plus theres way more parts out there for the 1st gen.
06-12-2005, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Phantasea,Jun 12 2005, 04:46 PM
Personally, I think the 1st gen S2000s are much better because I have one. I think they look better because I have one and most importantly they will always be faster because I have one. Both gens have 240hp peak and the 2nd gen has only 8 ft-lbs more torque peak. Off the line the 2nd gen might be slighlty quicker, but if you know how to drive and can stay in the narrow power band of the 1st gen its just as fast. Most importantly you can add a 2.2-2.5 liter stroke kit for the 1st gen (and since they are the same block you can/will be able to do all the same shit to it). Since the 1st gen is a 2.0L and the 2nd gen is a 2.2L and because both engines come stock with the same peak hp and the 2nd gen has only 8 ft-lbs more peak torque, adding a 2.2 liter stroke kit to the 1st gen will give it more hp and torque than that of the stock 2.2 liter of the 2nd gen. Get it? Plus theres way more parts out there for the 1st gen right now.
Figures lie, and liars figure.
06-12-2005, 05:26 PM
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Are you freaking kidding me? Are you saying that a 2.2L AP1 isnt faster than a 2.2L AP2? Are you telling me a 2.5L AP1 isnt faster than a 2.5L AP2 which probably isnt even possible on the AP2 considering the fact that youd probably have a shitty redline of about 6800 rpm or lower? LOL. Match the liters and the AP1 will always be faster. There about identical stock.
06-12-2005, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Phantasea,Jun 12 2005, 05:26 PM
Are you freaking kidding me? Are you saying that a 2.2L AP1 isnt faster than a 2.2L AP2? Are you telling me a 2.5L AP1 isnt faster than a 2.5L AP2 which probably isnt even possible on the AP2 considering the fact that youd probably have a shitty redline of about 6800 rpm or lower? LOL. Match the liters and the AP1 will always be faster. There about identical stock.
06-12-2005, 05:51 PM
#140
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you're saying the ap1 is faster, which it's not. they are the same, or so damn close to the same, that either way it comes down to driver.
and yes, taking the 2.0 liter to a 2.2 liter would make it faster than a stock 2.2liter ap2. but now we're talking mods and that's not what this is about. that's another thread entirely. anyone can mod xx car to make it faster than xx car. so let's not be bringing mods into this thread and this equation. that's not what we're discussing here.
and yes, taking the 2.0 liter to a 2.2 liter would make it faster than a stock 2.2liter ap2. but now we're talking mods and that's not what this is about. that's another thread entirely. anyone can mod xx car to make it faster than xx car. so let's not be bringing mods into this thread and this equation. that's not what we're discussing here.