ap2's have 6-10% more hp from 1-8k
06-11-2005, 09:55 AM
#111
Registered User
Originally Posted by spidale5,Jun 11 2005, 11:03 AM
It is being assumed that when an AP1 is @ 9000, the torque is "much" greater than an AP2 at whatever RPM (6500 maybe, I have no idea) it is at at this point, looks to me like the AP1 is at an equal or possibly lower torque this entire extra 1000 RPM than the AP2 at the beginning of its VTEC band. Is that extra 1000 RPM greater or is it more advantageous to have an increasing torque at this point? As soon as the AP1 shifts, it's torque then must "catch up". I don't know which advantage is greater, from what I can tell, they seem to outweight eachother.
I agree with jasonw at this point. He is thinking about it theoretically, as I'm sure the Honda engineers did. It's the area under the curve that's gonna tell, added up in every gear. RPM or torque, your results will probably be within the same ratio.
I agree with jasonw at this point. He is thinking about it theoretically, as I'm sure the Honda engineers did. It's the area under the curve that's gonna tell, added up in every gear. RPM or torque, your results will probably be within the same ratio.
while the ap1 may not be making as much torque at 8500 or so rpm as the ap2 is at 6500rpm in it's next gear, it's making more POWER with the gearing factored in.
gearing essentially multiplies the engine torque being made.
so let's say the ap2 is making 145lb/ft at 6500rpm (probably a little high. and the ap1 is making 135lb/ft at 8500rpm.
ap1 is winding out 1st, while ap2 is now into 2nd. 1st gear is 3.133, 2nd is 2.045
3.133 * 4.10 * 1.16 * 135lb/ft = 2011
2.045 * 4.10 * 1.208 * 145lb/ft = 1468
So, you can see, during the acceleration range, from 36-43mph the ap2 must use it's weaker 2nd gear, while the ap1 can use the much stronger 1st gear for that particular speed. now this is just a portion of the acceleration range, but you see the effect that the lower redline has on the ap2's acceleration.
If the lower redline was not there, the ap2 could accelerate faster than the ap1 no problem due to it's slightly shorter gearing, and better power. but this is not the case. while the ap2 is accelerating from 36-43mph, it's giving the ap1 a very great chance at catching back up no problem. and this continues through the acceleration range.
if you take any car, and give it better gearing, but then cut it's redline, you have negated the advantage of the gearing. and people make a big deal about the ap2's gearing, but they are making a mountain out of a mole hill. it's .04. so basically instead of a 4.10 it's like having 4.14. it's an extremely small difference. the little extra power it's making is more of a difference than the gearing in any aspect.
06-11-2005, 12:28 PM
#115
Registered User
Originally Posted by spidale5,Jun 11 2005, 01:08 PM
I agree with the mountain over a mole hill with this entire argument. However, you must also consider the time spent in that power range. Just like gearing you can either assume they are close enough to be the same, or different enough to take into consideration. Obviously having more torque is going to pull you through the range quicker. Now let's also consider wheel diameter, 2" difference in the two (rims at least, maybe the overall diameter is the same, too lazy to figure that), that will change the effective HP to the ground. We can go on and on, forever probably.
By the way, the AP2 makes slightly more peak power, we are not trying to prove that, that's a fact. It's erroneous to state that gearing makes more POWER. Gearing will have no effect on the power from the engine.
Also, torque is distance crossed with force. T[ft-lbf] =r[ft] X [lbf] = r X F. The units are [ft-lbs], not [lb/ft].
I just wanted to point out that it is not just as simple as gearing and torque. It just can't be assume that the cars will hit the rpm's at the exact time.
By the way, the AP2 makes slightly more peak power, we are not trying to prove that, that's a fact. It's erroneous to state that gearing makes more POWER. Gearing will have no effect on the power from the engine.
Also, torque is distance crossed with force. T[ft-lbf] =r[ft] X [lbf] = r X F. The units are [ft-lbs], not [lb/ft].
I just wanted to point out that it is not just as simple as gearing and torque. It just can't be assume that the cars will hit the rpm's at the exact time.
spidale, I know there's more to it, but I'm trying to show there's more to the argument than the advantages of the F22C's gearing and a little extra power. they are completely ignoring any other factors that negatively affect these advantages.
06-11-2005, 04:06 PM
#116
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: █ SF, CA █
Posts: 16,702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Wisconsin S2k,Jun 11 2005, 01:28 PM
they are completely ignoring any other factors that negatively affect these advantages.
Those factors have yet to be demonstrated, therefore they cannot be ignored...
Do you understand what the area under the curve represents?
06-11-2005, 04:50 PM
#117
Registered User
I just want to throw this in here.
The S2000 is a special car. It is unlike any other, in that it makes extreme power out of such a small displacement engine. It puts out more HP/litre than a lot of FI cars in fact, past and present. We bought this car to wind the hell out of it, and enjoy the extremely high redline and power that this car makes.
Now, look at American cars. They have gigantic engines. They make lots of power and torque but out of a substantially larger displacement. Look at the late 90s Z28. 5.7 litre putting out only 300 or so HP. That is horrible.
This import racing scene that has exploded in this country over the past 10 years is due to these slick little nimble imports that are now able to compete against these large American muscle cars (albeit inefficient).
The AP2 is AMERICA'S response to the import scene. IMO, it's a dummied down Americanized version of the powerful nimble import car that is now becoming so popular. It has a larger engine, more torque... it's using displacement as its' excuse. I'm not saying I dislike the AP2; I even considered buying one. But when it came down to it, the reason I wanted an S2000 in the first place is that you can wind the hell out of it. The AP2 effectively reduces that. I'd rather put a little money into modifying the quoteslowerunquote AP1 and enjoy the high redline.
And besides, the AP2 rear bumper, exhaust tips, spoiler, and especially the wheels are hella ugly.
But alas, we're all arguing amongst one another and we should be embracing the fact that we all have such an awesome car. Let's just make fun of everyone else!
The S2000 is a special car. It is unlike any other, in that it makes extreme power out of such a small displacement engine. It puts out more HP/litre than a lot of FI cars in fact, past and present. We bought this car to wind the hell out of it, and enjoy the extremely high redline and power that this car makes.
Now, look at American cars. They have gigantic engines. They make lots of power and torque but out of a substantially larger displacement. Look at the late 90s Z28. 5.7 litre putting out only 300 or so HP. That is horrible.
This import racing scene that has exploded in this country over the past 10 years is due to these slick little nimble imports that are now able to compete against these large American muscle cars (albeit inefficient).
The AP2 is AMERICA'S response to the import scene. IMO, it's a dummied down Americanized version of the powerful nimble import car that is now becoming so popular. It has a larger engine, more torque... it's using displacement as its' excuse. I'm not saying I dislike the AP2; I even considered buying one. But when it came down to it, the reason I wanted an S2000 in the first place is that you can wind the hell out of it. The AP2 effectively reduces that. I'd rather put a little money into modifying the quoteslowerunquote AP1 and enjoy the high redline.
And besides, the AP2 rear bumper, exhaust tips, spoiler, and especially the wheels are hella ugly.
But alas, we're all arguing amongst one another and we should be embracing the fact that we all have such an awesome car. Let's just make fun of everyone else!
06-11-2005, 04:56 PM
#118
Registered User
Originally Posted by jasonw,Jun 11 2005, 06:06 PM
Back from Sac2kdays... got home 1st cause everyone else had AP1...
Those factors have yet to be demonstrated, therefore they cannot be ignored...
Do you understand what the area under the curve represents?
Those factors have yet to be demonstrated, therefore they cannot be ignored...
Do you understand what the area under the curve represents?
What do you mean it hasn't been demonstrated? Let's do this. Take your car and run the 1/4 mile 10 times. Then take it, run it again, but this time short shift yourself 1000rpm every gear, and then tell me it "hasn't been demonstrated".
we can go on and on. it's already all been said. you're not going to change my mind, and i doubt I'm going to change yours.
But, the 1/4 mile track times don't lie. Even you can't argue that.
The differences between these two cars is so small, it's negligable. I don't understand why it's so hard for people to admit that.
06-11-2005, 09:27 PM
#119
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: █ SF, CA █
Posts: 16,702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem is that you are trying to reduce the f22c to an f20c that just can't rev as high. The RPMS have nothing to do with how fast the car is. It just happens to be that the design requires the engine to rev higher to make power. There's nothing wrong with reducing that requirement. If engine A can have a less peaky power band than engine B, while reaching at least the same HP, it doesn't really matter that engine B revs higher.
1/4 mile times obviously tell more about the driver than the car. And while they don't lie, the may minimize the differences in torque and shape of power curve, partially because of the speed at which it is over. 1/4 mile really is the last thing I'm worried about. Otherwise I would have got something else. On a circuit, things are more interesting and your 1/4 mile time slips won't have much relevance.
And the difference in redlines is not 1000 rpms. It's 800.
1/4 mile times obviously tell more about the driver than the car. And while they don't lie, the may minimize the differences in torque and shape of power curve, partially because of the speed at which it is over. 1/4 mile really is the last thing I'm worried about. Otherwise I would have got something else. On a circuit, things are more interesting and your 1/4 mile time slips won't have much relevance.
And the difference in redlines is not 1000 rpms. It's 800.
06-11-2005, 09:54 PM
#120
Registered User
rev limiter on the ap1 is 9150.
rev limiter on the ap2 is 8200. it's a 950rpm difference.
how many more nits can we pick?
and when i'm talking about "faster" here i am talking straight line only.
and yes revs DO matter. do you realize that the torque curve on the ap1 is VERY flat?? the ap2 is not any less "peakier" than the ap1. once it hits 6000rpm, the torque curve on the ap1 stays at about 135lb/ft pretty much all the way to redline. no different than the ap2.
you can't just ignore that rev limiter difference. as i've already said. it negates the advantage the ap2 had of more power and slightly shorter gearing.
if the F22 was so much better, then why does the rest of the world still get the F20??????? this would be a first that the US got the BETTER engine out of ANYTHING!!!! considering we never get the good engines or the best trims of a line up in cars.
in a straight line, the cars are dead even. everything that i can say to prove it has been said. anyone who wants to prove me wrong, feel free to stop by anytime, and i'll GLADLY show you I'm right.
between that and the 1/4 mile times and traps attained by both cars, you can't argue. when the cars have similar 60' times, ever notice how their trap speeds ALSO line up? why? because neither is faster than the other. all the numbers and theories in the world can't argue otherwise.
rev limiter on the ap2 is 8200. it's a 950rpm difference.
how many more nits can we pick?
and when i'm talking about "faster" here i am talking straight line only.
and yes revs DO matter. do you realize that the torque curve on the ap1 is VERY flat?? the ap2 is not any less "peakier" than the ap1. once it hits 6000rpm, the torque curve on the ap1 stays at about 135lb/ft pretty much all the way to redline. no different than the ap2.
you can't just ignore that rev limiter difference. as i've already said. it negates the advantage the ap2 had of more power and slightly shorter gearing.
if the F22 was so much better, then why does the rest of the world still get the F20??????? this would be a first that the US got the BETTER engine out of ANYTHING!!!! considering we never get the good engines or the best trims of a line up in cars.
in a straight line, the cars are dead even. everything that i can say to prove it has been said. anyone who wants to prove me wrong, feel free to stop by anytime, and i'll GLADLY show you I'm right.
between that and the 1/4 mile times and traps attained by both cars, you can't argue. when the cars have similar 60' times, ever notice how their trap speeds ALSO line up? why? because neither is faster than the other. all the numbers and theories in the world can't argue otherwise.