RED MX5

LOL, if you had an AP1 and it was getting loose I'd know what to suggest, but I'm not exactly sure why your AP2 is pushing. I mean, they *will* push, but they will also get loose, so it's probably something you can fix with a small change in your driving style. If the car is pushing heavily on corner entry try going in slower, taking a late apex to get the car more straightened out sooner, and then use the power to push the front end right out to the edge of the racing line. I can't be certain, but that's one way to deal with understeer that works with a wide variety of cars, so it might work with the AP2. LOL, if it does, let me know.

I really wish I knew what I do differently in the AP2's to avoid push, but it's probably just a modification to the line and an earlier apex. If that doesn't do it, then maybe you need to try altering the amound of trailing brake you're using. If you're not going too fast into the turn, and don't turn in too suddenly, and if you have enough weight transferred to the front tires (but not too much of course), then the front tires have to bite and turn in.

You do know how to get the push to stop, right?
You can either let the tires scrub off speed until they get grip, and then pivot the car under power, or (a much better solution most of the time) you can just unwind the steering enough to get some grip and then continue the turn in. I tend to do the former when I go into a corner too hot, but it's faster and smarter to do the latter.

tak_one_77

What a FAR-KEN-MAD-CARN'T

Being a twin and not identical, I can notice subtle differences in identicals.

If I had an opportunity to bed hot identicals twins, I'd definately be able to tell you they "aren't identical" to steal a line from The Adventures of Ford Fairlane (Mr Rock'N'Roll detective".

Love ya work!

RED MX5

I think you overestimate the level of skill that it takes to keep the early cars in hand. It does take some practice and for me some training support, but it's easy once you get the hang of it. I guess it's a little like learning to juggle or ride a unicycle. LOL, maybe it's more like learning to rub your stomach and pat your head at the same time. We've all developed patterns in the way we do things and we repeat them habitually. A new or altered skill is just a matter of changing or modifying old habits, and I really think learning to drive the S2000 well is no more difficult than learning to ride a bike. Once you get a few basics down everything else just falls into place.

Vishnus11, does that ^^^ make sense?
I'm just an average driver who has had some training, has done some training, and practiced a lot. I've driven a lot of cars under a lot of different conditions over a long period of time, so I may have less trouble than some when it comes to modifying my driving habits to match the car, but I don't really do it any more effectively than the average person. Anything I can learn to do with a car can also be learned by the vast majority of the people here, if they just put in the time and effort. In that sense I am VERY average.

I'm trying to beg off on this because I don't want anyone thinking that I am (or that I think I am) a better driver than anyone else here. If I am, it's only a matter of practice and schooling and that's available to anyone, so it's no big deal. Anyone here can go from no clue at all to 90% of what the best drivers do with a SINGLE Evolution school, so when I say it's no big deal, I really mean that it's NO BIG DEAL.

Besides, I have days when nothing goes right, and a really good driver has more discipline.

FWIW, I do think an S2000, any S2000, can make most people a better driver, if that's what they are looking to get from the car.

RED MX5

Hopefully some day everyone else (who cares) will see it the same way.

Most AP1 owners will always be the guys who could not afford a newer car, but that clearly isn't always the case, as some actually prefer the earlier cars, for a variety of reasons. One good driving school will make a bigger difference in performance than all the differences in the cars plus a supercharger and gearing, so "mine is bigger" arguments are moot. Prospective owners who really care about the fine details of handling and driving need to drive both versions of the car before making a purchase decision, becasue the cars are different, whether the differences show up in absolute performance or not, but there is no "right" decision and no "better" version of the car. Most people should find the AP2 easier to drive, because the car is more forgiving, but that isn't what everyone is looking for.

Maybe if most of the people here understand this we wil be able to discuss differences, and even joke about them, without so many people getting their feelings hurt.

RED MX5

LOL, the talk about experience above just reminded me of something that always strikes me funny. At the Evolution schools the day always starts out with everyone introducing themselves and telling everyone else how many years of autocrossing experience they have. Without exception I have WAY MORE years of experience than any of the instructors, usually at least TWICE as many years experience. In the Phase 1 schools it always gets me funny looks from the first timers; Like, "what the heck are YOU doing here."

People go to the schools over an over becasue there is always room for improvement.

negcamber

I posted those to show you some autoxers who are pros. To say that National level autoxers...especially National Champions...have abilities that are a tier below pros is simply an ignorant comment.

BTW...Jason Saini (2nd link) is our own resident National Champion in the S2000...AP1 of course. He's already making podium apperances in his 1st year in the MX-5 Pro series.

And the AP2 has been out long enough for it to show-up the AP1s had it been quick enough to do so. BTW...that is another very telling point...none of the fast AP1 guys switched to the AP2. That may not sound significant to you...but to give you some perspective on the sport and how drivers change rides: back in the '90s the 1.6L Miata was the car to have in it's class. When the 1.8L came out with the Torsen LSD, it was shown to be quicker...the hot shoes dropped their 1.6L rides like yesterday's news. Later when the 1999 Miata Sports came out, they were shown to be quicker...and once again the hot shoes switched. Those switches happened within a year of the new cars' availability...so pretty quick.

The hot shoes didn't bother switching from the AP1 to the AP2. Quite a few tested the AP2 and decided there was not an advantage to switching.

RED MX5

Good info, but did any of the top S2000 drivers in BS or AS ever win at the nationals without modifying their car to reduce oversteer?

negcamber

I think I understand where you are going...but let me give this food for thought:

Both Bob and Steve had the legal mods (FSB, adj shocks, r-comps etc). But, the AP2 has a couple oversteer advantages that the AP1 can never hope to match legally. While both can run a nice stiff Gendron bar up front, the AP2 has a smaller rear bar that the AP1 can't use. And the AP2 uses much larger 275 tires at the rear compared to the AP1 using 265 back there. And I understand that r-comps dramatically change the grip, but IMO (and that's all it is), it does not dramatically change the characteristics of the car as far as oversteer is concerned...both cars still oversteer regarless of what tire you use, it is just a question of at what speed. IMO, r-comps allow speeds that actually create far more violent and abrupt spins as compared with either the S02 or the RE050. And consider that both drivers would not be the best in those cars if they were not able to take them to the ragged edge of the tire's performance...regardless if they were on r-comps or 140 treadwear.

So if anything...the AP2's autox setup widens the gap between the two cars where oversteer is concerned.

RED MX5

[QUOTE=negcamber,May 7 2007, 10:56 AM]I think I understand where you are going...but let me give this food for thought:

Both Bob and Steve had the legal mods (FSB, adj shocks, r-comps etc).

negcamber

And you know what is odd, Red...the fast guys don't use the Gendron bar to increase understeer, both cars even with r-comps make enough power to modulate from understeer to oversteer with your right foot and/or trail braking. Instead, they use it to keep that inside rear planted, because you are absolutely right...it is possible to get massive inside wheel spin (and I actually get it with my streets too, but then they are Azenis 615s).