AP1 VS AP2
05-05-2007, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by RED MX5,May 5 2007, 05:02 PM
I lost touch with this thread because our internet service was down for a couple days, but I think I'm in almost total agreement with Negcamber. He seems more certain that the original is better in the hands of the best drivers than I am, but I know for a fact that the thin line my AP1 walks at the limit has made me a MUCH BETTER DRIVER, no matter what I'm driving, and the AP2 walks a wider line which would not have benefitted me as much. I needed a car that required more finesse than I had to enable the improvement, and the AP2 wasn't the right car for that job. Now that the stock AP1 has become easy to drive we've added power, gears, and an aggressive differential so that it will respond even more quickly and demand further improvements. I want MY S2000 to force me to rise to it's capabilities, so I started with an early AP1 and once I had it well in hand we made it even more aggressive.
Not to be rude about it, because it's really just a funciton of our different driving styles, but I am certain that there are some here who would not be able to drive my car for a week without smashing it up. If you think the AP1 has nasty handling you'd think my car was totally undrivable and totally insane, but the fact that multi-time national Solo 2 champions have found the handling to their liking and the fact that it works for me tells me that the car is not the problem. I could stand quicker steering in my AP1, as could anyone who drives anything like I do (or like my Evolution School instructors drive). I don't consider myself qualified to evaluate a cars handling for anyone other than myself (either I like it, or I don't), but the Evolution instructors DO have the experience and skills to evaluate a cars handling, and my twitchier than stock AP1 is not too twichy for any of them. Not ANY of them. They all have nothing but positive comments about the car, and their job is to recommend ways to improve both the driver and the car. Not ONCE have they suggested any changes to my horrible handling twitchy nervous AP1, and that tells me at least as much about the way the car handles as my own feelings about the way it handles.
In competent hands, when handled with finesse, the AP1 handling is first rate. The fact that not all of Honda's customers like driving a car that was set up by professional drivers for people of like talent does not constitute any kind of handling "problem" in the car. However, jumping from that to concluding that the best drivers can get more out of the AP1 seems to be a bit of a stretch to me. It might be true; Might not be. I think it depends on one's driving style and skill level and that either car will be the quicker depending on who is behind the wheel. My car is way quicker on the autocross course and in straight line acceleration now, in part because of the mods, and in part because of the schools I've attended and all the practice I've had in the car. We've changed the car a little to better match what we want from it, but the biggest gains have come from improving the driver (the loose nut behind the wheel
), and a big part of that improvement was facilitated by the requirement for finesse that is a part of the AP1 package.
Negcamber seems to have it nailed, but I'm just less sure than he is about which car is actually faster in expert hands.
Not to be rude about it, because it's really just a funciton of our different driving styles, but I am certain that there are some here who would not be able to drive my car for a week without smashing it up. If you think the AP1 has nasty handling you'd think my car was totally undrivable and totally insane, but the fact that multi-time national Solo 2 champions have found the handling to their liking and the fact that it works for me tells me that the car is not the problem. I could stand quicker steering in my AP1, as could anyone who drives anything like I do (or like my Evolution School instructors drive). I don't consider myself qualified to evaluate a cars handling for anyone other than myself (either I like it, or I don't), but the Evolution instructors DO have the experience and skills to evaluate a cars handling, and my twitchier than stock AP1 is not too twichy for any of them. Not ANY of them. They all have nothing but positive comments about the car, and their job is to recommend ways to improve both the driver and the car. Not ONCE have they suggested any changes to my horrible handling twitchy nervous AP1, and that tells me at least as much about the way the car handles as my own feelings about the way it handles.
In competent hands, when handled with finesse, the AP1 handling is first rate. The fact that not all of Honda's customers like driving a car that was set up by professional drivers for people of like talent does not constitute any kind of handling "problem" in the car. However, jumping from that to concluding that the best drivers can get more out of the AP1 seems to be a bit of a stretch to me. It might be true; Might not be. I think it depends on one's driving style and skill level and that either car will be the quicker depending on who is behind the wheel. My car is way quicker on the autocross course and in straight line acceleration now, in part because of the mods, and in part because of the schools I've attended and all the practice I've had in the car. We've changed the car a little to better match what we want from it, but the biggest gains have come from improving the driver (the loose nut behind the wheel
), and a big part of that improvement was facilitated by the requirement for finesse that is a part of the AP1 package.Negcamber seems to have it nailed, but I'm just less sure than he is about which car is actually faster in expert hands.
^ I'm in agreement with you on this one RED MX5.
My personal take on handling on the two cars is this:
The AP1 is not as forgiving as the AP2 period. Which makes it more of a handful WHEN THINGS GO BAD. Its by no means twitchy or nervous, but for lack of better terminology, "shit hits the fan" BAD in an AP1 when you walk the fine line. In the AP2, crossing the limit results in more predicable behavior that is easier to recover from. The fact that the AP1 can be more of a handful after poor driver input than an AP2 is what I believe leads many AP1 owners to believe that their car is "edgier" than the AP2 and this is undoubtedly true. But I don't think that being "edgier" translates into the car being more responsive, or that the AP2 is watered down in any way. The personality of the cars is just different and the fact that the AP2 behaves more predictably doesn't make it any less fun to drive up to that limit. I can see a certain element of excitement being dervied from driving an AP1 at the limit, due to the fact that the driver knows that an increased level of danger lies ahead when compared to an AP2 and I believe that this is (at least partly) what RED MX5 is alluring to.
Now what I disagree with is the comments on this thread, that say that the AP2 is easier to drive to the fullest. I personally think that to drive both cars to the limit of what they're capable of requires immense, IMMENSE driving talent, and its something most people will rarely ever approach, even those who track their cars competitively. I think that equal talent is required to drive both cars to their FULLEST potential. The S2000 is one of those cars where the perfect driver can go out there and turn a lap that is measureably quicker than a very good track driver. In contrast, I see the 350Z as the kind of car where a very good track driver and the perfect driver would turn very similar lap times.
AP2 drivers are more confident in pushing the car to the outer edges of the envelope because of predictable breakaway, but I think that it boils down to a confidence issue, not because one car handles vastly differently than the other - its just that the driver of the AP2 feels 0.001% more daring than the AP1 driver because of more predictable breakaway. And it still takes the best efforts to drive both cars to the max.
I also believe that the AP2 will perform better than an AP1 on the track, just because of the fact that guys who built the car SET OUT DO EXACTLY this when they made the transition from AP1 to AP2. I mean, its basic common sense - the manufacturer is always looking to improve the product. People who think that Honda held back on the AP2 on whatever nonsense must be delusional.
In the end, both cars have the same soul, the same DNA. Both are as close of an interpretation of the "race car for the street" experience. I don't think that an AP2 owner would weep if they were told they had to drive an AP1, and conversely I don't think that an AP1 owner is going to commit suicide if their told to drive an AP2 instead. Subtle difference seperate the two, and only the very discerning enthusiast like RED MX5 for example can appreciate and enjoy these differences. Problem is, a good portion of the folks on here see things as "9K vs. 8K" or "softer vs. stiffer".
05-05-2007, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by vishnus11,May 5 2007, 08:49 PM
" However, jumping from that to concluding that the best drivers can get more out of the AP1 seems to be a bit of a stretch to me."
^ I'm in agreement with you on this one RED MX5.
My personal take on handling on the two cars is this:
The AP1 is not as forgiving as the AP2 period. Which makes it more of a handful WHEN THINGS GO BAD. Its by no means twitchy or nervous, but for lack of better terminology, "shit hits the fan" BAD in an AP1 when you walk the fine line. In the AP2, crossing the limit results in more predicable behavior that is easier to recover from. The fact that the AP1 can be more of a handful after poor driver input than an AP2 is what I believe leads many AP1 owners to believe that their car is "edgier" than the AP2 and this is undoubtedly true. But I don't think that being "edgier" translates into the car being more responsive, or that the AP2 is watered down in any way. The personality of the cars is just different and the fact that the AP2 behaves more predictably doesn't make it any less fun to drive up to that limit. I can see a certain element of excitement being dervied from driving an AP1 at the limit, due to the fact that the driver knows that an increased level of danger lies ahead when compared to an AP2 and I believe that this is (at least partly) what RED MX5 is alluring to.
Now what I disagree with is the comments on this thread, that say that the AP2 is easier to drive to the fullest. I personally think that to drive both cars to the limit of what they're capable of requires immense, IMMENSE driving talent, and its something most people will rarely ever approach, even those who track their cars competitively. I think that equal talent is required to drive both cars to their FULLEST potential. The S2000 is one of those cars where the perfect driver can go out there and turn a lap that is measureably quicker than a very good track driver. In contrast, I see the 350Z as the kind of car where a very good track driver and the perfect driver would turn very similar lap times.
AP2 drivers are more confident in pushing the car to the outer edges of the envelope because of predictable breakaway, but I think that it boils down to a confidence issue, not because one car handles vastly differently than the other - its just that the driver of the AP2 feels 0.001% more daring than the AP1 driver because of more predictable breakaway. And it still takes the best efforts to drive both cars to the max.
I also believe that the AP2 will perform better than an AP1 on the track, just because of the fact that guys who built the car SET OUT DO EXACTLY this when they made the transition from AP1 to AP2. I mean, its basic common sense - the manufacturer is always looking to improve the product. People who think that Honda held back on the AP2 on whatever nonsense must be delusional.
In the end, both cars have the same soul, the same DNA. Both are as close of an interpretation of the "race car for the street" experience. I don't think that an AP2 owner would weep if they were told they had to drive an AP1, and conversely I don't think that an AP1 owner is going to commit suicide if their told to drive an AP2 instead. Subtle difference seperate the two, and only the very discerning enthusiast like RED MX5 for example can appreciate and enjoy these differences. Problem is, a good portion of the folks on here see things as "9K vs. 8K" or "softer vs. stiffer".
^ I'm in agreement with you on this one RED MX5.
My personal take on handling on the two cars is this:
The AP1 is not as forgiving as the AP2 period. Which makes it more of a handful WHEN THINGS GO BAD. Its by no means twitchy or nervous, but for lack of better terminology, "shit hits the fan" BAD in an AP1 when you walk the fine line. In the AP2, crossing the limit results in more predicable behavior that is easier to recover from. The fact that the AP1 can be more of a handful after poor driver input than an AP2 is what I believe leads many AP1 owners to believe that their car is "edgier" than the AP2 and this is undoubtedly true. But I don't think that being "edgier" translates into the car being more responsive, or that the AP2 is watered down in any way. The personality of the cars is just different and the fact that the AP2 behaves more predictably doesn't make it any less fun to drive up to that limit. I can see a certain element of excitement being dervied from driving an AP1 at the limit, due to the fact that the driver knows that an increased level of danger lies ahead when compared to an AP2 and I believe that this is (at least partly) what RED MX5 is alluring to.
Now what I disagree with is the comments on this thread, that say that the AP2 is easier to drive to the fullest. I personally think that to drive both cars to the limit of what they're capable of requires immense, IMMENSE driving talent, and its something most people will rarely ever approach, even those who track their cars competitively. I think that equal talent is required to drive both cars to their FULLEST potential. The S2000 is one of those cars where the perfect driver can go out there and turn a lap that is measureably quicker than a very good track driver. In contrast, I see the 350Z as the kind of car where a very good track driver and the perfect driver would turn very similar lap times.
AP2 drivers are more confident in pushing the car to the outer edges of the envelope because of predictable breakaway, but I think that it boils down to a confidence issue, not because one car handles vastly differently than the other - its just that the driver of the AP2 feels 0.001% more daring than the AP1 driver because of more predictable breakaway. And it still takes the best efforts to drive both cars to the max.
I also believe that the AP2 will perform better than an AP1 on the track, just because of the fact that guys who built the car SET OUT DO EXACTLY this when they made the transition from AP1 to AP2. I mean, its basic common sense - the manufacturer is always looking to improve the product. People who think that Honda held back on the AP2 on whatever nonsense must be delusional.
In the end, both cars have the same soul, the same DNA. Both are as close of an interpretation of the "race car for the street" experience. I don't think that an AP2 owner would weep if they were told they had to drive an AP1, and conversely I don't think that an AP1 owner is going to commit suicide if their told to drive an AP2 instead. Subtle difference seperate the two, and only the very discerning enthusiast like RED MX5 for example can appreciate and enjoy these differences. Problem is, a good portion of the folks on here see things as "9K vs. 8K" or "softer vs. stiffer".
Several people have made comments about the inability of average people to master these cars, and I'm not sure I am in total agreement. LOL, I'm not really sure what to make of the problems some people seem to have, but I do believe that with practice and training almost anyone *can* master either car, at least some of the time. I lack the ability to maintain the necessary focus to be consistant, but on a good day when everything is going right and I'm on my game I honestly think there are times when I'm fully extracting everything the car can deliver, and if I can learn to do it, I have to believe that anyone else can learn. I'm no professional driver, and probably no better than average, but I go to the schools and practice a LOT, and it makes a huge difference. However, it does not, as far as I can tell, take any special innate talent(s). My eyes aren't what they use to be so depth perception is not as sharp as it once was, and my old joints aren't as flexable as they once were, and I can still manage it, so I have to believe that anyone else can do the same.
Without some instruction it is impossible to drive an air-cooled Porsche 911 anywhere near its limits without throwing it away, but countless people have mastered the cars, and they're harder to master than the S2000 (any S2000). So while I agree with you, I still don't think these cars are beyond what average drivers can learn to manage. They set a high standard that most of us have to grow into, but the growth is not beyond the reach of the average person.
LOL, if they are beyond the reach of the average driver then I don't even want to discuss it any more, because I can't accept what that would say about my own skill level. I'm really not THAT good.
05-05-2007, 07:49 PM
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The notion that it takes some kind of super driver to get the most out of an S2000 bothers me. I think of myself as about average for an experienced autocrosser. Just walked through the house and counted 17 first place trophies that haven't been put in storage with all the others yet. Total is probably fifty or more, and while that's probably more wins than "average" they were all taken at local level autocrosses, so they don't mean the same thing they would if they'd been taken at a higher level of competition (Natinoals or Pro Series). In fact I'd probably get handed my hat at those events, if for no other reason than that my car is not properly prepared for that level of competition, but I don't compete at that level because I don't feel that I have reached that level of performance (and I never will because all too often I find that I can't stay focused for a full run). However, at the last Phase 2 school, where all the instructors and most of the students are competing at the pro or national levels, everyone there was trying to convince me to come to the Nationals, beause *they* all thought that I had as much of a chance of winning there as anyone else. Given that, and only for that reason, I will admit that I *MAY* have more skill than the average person, but I do so reluctantly and with a great deal of doubt.
Until I got the S2000 I always attributed my wins to having a superior vehicle. I still attribute the wins to the car, but if the AP1 is so damn hard to drive them maybe I've been wrong all these years, and maybe it's really the driver. If that's the case then (and I'm JUST KIDDING here) the AP2 owners who find the AP1 too twitchy simply need to learn how to drive. j/k (Anyone who takes that comment seriously is an a-hole. )
Until I got the S2000 I always attributed my wins to having a superior vehicle. I still attribute the wins to the car, but if the AP1 is so damn hard to drive them maybe I've been wrong all these years, and maybe it's really the driver. If that's the case then (and I'm JUST KIDDING here) the AP2 owners who find the AP1 too twitchy simply need to learn how to drive.
j/k (Anyone who takes that comment seriously is an a-hole. )
05-05-2007, 07:54 PM
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BTW, I've been trying to get the S2000 owners in the general area of Atlanta to go to the next Mazda Zoom Zoom Live event so we can all compete against one another in identical cars. I know for a fact that some of the guys will blow my doors off, but that's not the point. The idea is to have a good time with some head to head competition on a level playing field. If enough of the guys show up for the event at least we'll have a better idea of which guys in this area can actually drive and which ones are just talking out their butts.
When I have a date for the event I'll be posting it here on S2kI, and asking the local crowd to join CCR at the event, and naturally any of the rest of you who can make it would be more than welcome. Maybe we can fill the Mazda Zoom Zoom Live event parking lot with S2000's.
Even if only a few of us can make it, it will still be fun.
When I have a date for the event I'll be posting it here on S2kI, and asking the local crowd to join CCR at the event, and naturally any of the rest of you who can make it would be more than welcome. Maybe we can fill the Mazda Zoom Zoom Live event parking lot with S2000's.
Even if only a few of us can make it, it will still be fun.
05-05-2007, 08:06 PM
#167
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redruM, thanks for posting the averages. I absolutely agree that the AP2 is easier for the average driver to go faster. I've said it in this thread and if we had a search engine worth a damn you could search my comments over the past 3 years where I've encouraged folks who ask, "which should I get", to go for the AP2 because it is easier for average American drivers to enjoy.
But I, like Red, am not really interested in the averages. I like looking at the capability. There are a lot of cars whose capability faaaar outstrip my abilities, and I lust after them. The Ultima GT or Noble would probably lead to my demise, but I would go with a smile on my face.
vishnus11...good reminder of the brochure. You obviously took the info there at face value...unfortunately, I viewed it as pretty standard sellers talk. "Enhanced" and "improved" are subjective and you have to ask what measuring stick was used and what emperical numbers were acheived. And everyone agrees with R&T's assessment of the AP2's predictability...but does that predictability increase the car's maximum potential?
But I do absolutely agree with you that for most folks the AP2 inspires confidence and allows them to drive it faster. And I also agree that anyone who thinks that the AP2 does not require immense skill to reach it's max potential is nuts...AP2s will spin when the driver runs out of ability just as happens on an AP1.
But I do disagree that manufacturers are always out to improve their product...they are out to improve sales. And this is acheived by making their product appeal to a broader market while remaining within the target niche. And there is one device on the AP2, which to me, is very telling about Honda's objective for the AP2: the CDV. No performance minded person would choose to put that in their car as an enhancement to performance. It's purpose is to increase reliability at the expense of driver flexibility and max performance. And I would say that it is there because of the complaints that the S2k diff is weak (and because of the warranty liability to the company from replacing diffs).
Red...some background on why I feel the way I do: I used to be a half-way decent autoxer a long time ago (age has not been kind to my reaction times though). Hung with some of the fast guys. Ian Stewart co-drove my car more than once. I've seen Bob Klinger run back when we were both in Miatas. I have a pretty good understanding of how these guys think from a racing perspective after being in the sport off and on over the past 20yrs. Here is what I noticed. Damn few of the hot shoes bothered to switch to the AP2 when it came out. To me that speaks volumes. These are people who would have switched if there was an advantage to do so. If Jason Saini can spend $6k on shocks, not including the cost of testing, he certainly could have traded the AP1 for an AP2 if he thought it would make him a tenth of a second quicker. Ian could have as well, if he thought it would have made him more competitive (I won't repeat what Ian told me about the AP2 after driving one as it would just cause a riot). Bob is about the only national level driver to drive the AP2. Bob has a national title under his belt back as a Miata driver (amazing feat too as competition back then with Miatas was hell --40-50 drivers ALL in Miatas at Nats)...he is no slouch, but hasn't shown the AP2 to out perform the AP1 at Nats...YET...as the AP1s age and become more difficult to keep in top racing condition, I don't doubt that the AP2 will supplant it, perhaps even this year or next year with the CR.
You and I differ in opinion as to the relavance of autox results at that level due to the mods allowed in Stock class...but my feeling is that the rules are level and those competing at Nats will have made equivalent mods (with the exception of the AP2 being able to run larger tires). And while the driver factor can NEVER be eliminated, when the top 10 drivers are all within 1sec of each other, then they are about as close as you can get to equivalent ability. But beyond anything else, the Nats results are the most emperically objective results available.
But I, like Red, am not really interested in the averages. I like looking at the capability. There are a lot of cars whose capability faaaar outstrip my abilities, and I lust after them. The Ultima GT or Noble would probably lead to my demise, but I would go with a smile on my face.
vishnus11...good reminder of the brochure. You obviously took the info there at face value...unfortunately, I viewed it as pretty standard sellers talk. "Enhanced" and "improved" are subjective and you have to ask what measuring stick was used and what emperical numbers were acheived. And everyone agrees with R&T's assessment of the AP2's predictability...but does that predictability increase the car's maximum potential?
But I do absolutely agree with you that for most folks the AP2 inspires confidence and allows them to drive it faster. And I also agree that anyone who thinks that the AP2 does not require immense skill to reach it's max potential is nuts...AP2s will spin when the driver runs out of ability just as happens on an AP1.
But I do disagree that manufacturers are always out to improve their product...they are out to improve sales. And this is acheived by making their product appeal to a broader market while remaining within the target niche. And there is one device on the AP2, which to me, is very telling about Honda's objective for the AP2: the CDV. No performance minded person would choose to put that in their car as an enhancement to performance. It's purpose is to increase reliability at the expense of driver flexibility and max performance. And I would say that it is there because of the complaints that the S2k diff is weak (and because of the warranty liability to the company from replacing diffs).
Originally Posted by RED MX5,May 5 2007, 08:02 PM
Negcamber seems to have it nailed, but I'm just less sure than he is about which car is actually faster in expert hands.
You and I differ in opinion as to the relavance of autox results at that level due to the mods allowed in Stock class...but my feeling is that the rules are level and those competing at Nats will have made equivalent mods (with the exception of the AP2 being able to run larger tires). And while the driver factor can NEVER be eliminated, when the top 10 drivers are all within 1sec of each other, then they are about as close as you can get to equivalent ability. But beyond anything else, the Nats results are the most emperically objective results available.
05-05-2007, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptainMike,May 3 2007, 09:19 AM
Having owned both and driven both on the track and at autocross (60K in MY00 and 40K in MY04) I have to say that I always 'felt' like I was going faster in my AP1 but I actually am faster in my AP2. I would go as far as to say that the AP1 was better at exposing flaws in my driving, and that the AP2 is more forgiving of the same flaws. I would probably have been able to improve my driving more quickly and found it easier to discover problem areas in my technique driving my AP1. Unfortunately I am not financially in the position of having a dedicated track/autocross car so my S2K has to be my daily driver as well, and in that arena, I much prefer my AP2, especially in traffic and on interstates. (but then I have now crossed into the 'vintage' age group, so maybe that has something to do with my lack of appreciation for 'rawness' in stop and go traffic ) I haven't posted up in one of 'these' threads since 2004, it's actually kind of nice to see one that hasn't degenerated completely to "My &ick is bigger than your %ick" Kudos to the rational discussers (you know who you are)
Cheers,
Mike
) I haven't posted up in one of 'these' threads since 2004, it's actually kind of nice to see one that hasn't degenerated completely to "My &ick is bigger than your %ick" Kudos to the rational discussers (you know who you are) Cheers,
Mike
05-05-2007, 08:29 PM
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Ap1 - nice and raw.
Ap2 - a little more your friend.
either way they are BOTH are S2Ks.
Its like trying to choose which hot identical twin sister to start messing with first. It doesn't really matter. Enjoy !
Ap2 - a little more your friend.
either way they are BOTH are S2Ks.
Its like trying to choose which hot identical twin sister to start messing with first. It doesn't really matter. Enjoy !
