RED MX5

I agree with your entire post, and will simply add that the "twitchy, nervous rear end that plagued autocrossers" didn't actually plague ALL autocrossers. The bump steer, a side effect of the roll understeer, is more of an issue with larger R compound tires, and neither car is tuned to work well or even properly with the additional grip. What some see at twitchy others see as responsive, and that's the point I've been trying to get across (regarding the handling) all along. My car does not twitch or act nervously on the autocross courses, and the only time it ever even exhibited any bad handling characteristics was during the first few autocrosses during which I was learning the car.

Certainly the original suspension was not too twitchy for the Honda test drivers, on the tracks where they tested the car(s), and it's not too twichey for me, and unless everyone who feels the same way is lying then I'm not the only one. As long as my car is driven with finesse it is neither twitchy nor nervous, and that's the WHOLE POINT ... The car demands finesse (AP1 or AP2) but the AP1 is more demanding, so much so that many (if not most) find it twitchy and nerfous, and that demand is seen by some as a challenge, and a factor that by virtue of that challenge, makes the earlier cars more enjoyable TO THEM. What is amazing is that no matter how many times it is explained, or how it is explained, some people still don't get it. They want to see it as jealousy or justification, so they are blinded to all attempts to explain personal preference.

I've tried to point to the most obvious improvements in the AP2, but your comprehensive list is MUCH BETTER. After this I can't see how ANYONE could see a preference for one or the other as jealously or pride when I say that I prefer the AP1 because it demands more finesse. It's not twitchy or nervous as long as the driver applies a little finesse, and that can either be seen as a problem, or as a demand that presents a challenge to one's driving skill. What some see as twitch, I see as the ability to do what I want more quickly. If anything I think that has more to do with driving style than personal preferences, but it's a little of both, and as such can't be rated in terms like "better" and "best."

THANK YOU Vishnus11!!!

Is there anyone who still doesn't get it? The LSD in my car makes the line between slip and slide even smaller, so without finesse it would certainly make the car harder to drive. With finesse it actually makes the car more responsive and quicker to do my bidding, so I like it (to the point that I consider it to be one of the best mods we've made to the car). The newer cars are more refined and easier to drive fast - been saying that all along. They have a host of improvements - been saying that all along. They don't handle the same, and the handling of the newer cars is more forgiving, more stable, etc. - been saying that all along too. I've also been saying that I prefer the way the AP1 handles, because it works for me (and it worked for the Honda test drivers too, so at least if I am an idiot I am in good company ). By laying out all the differences so completely maybe you'll finally get the guys who can't see that personal preference and driving styles are the reason some prefer one over the other to open their eyes and smell the roses.

AP2's have a shit load of improvements that have been well documented now, and they are still less stable than AP1's. If instability is not a problem for a given driver in an AP1 then the AP1 will be seen as more responsive than the AP2. The heavier flywheel and CDV probably also contribute to the perception that the AP2 is less responsive. However, it's just a friggin' perspective, the way some see and experience it, and in no small part the perception is based on driving style and expectations. The cars are different, and we should be able to acknowledge the differences and personal preferences in a civil manner (without being slammed for daring to discuss the subject).

I like the simpler styling of the first cars. I like the "twitchy" handling of the early cars because I find it enjoyable and challenging, and because it works for me and doesn't seem twitchy at all. I acknowledge all the improvements made to the car since it's introduction and that they make the car easier to drive and more acceptable to a larger group of people. Then, some of "those people" get defensive or pissed, for reasons I have yet to comprehend. I happen to like the car's handling the way the Honda test drivers tuned it, and don't have any more problem with it being twitchy than they did (or for that matter, I don't have any more problems with the car than the Evolution school instructors who have driven it), because there is no problem as long as the car is driven with finesse. Whether it's better or not when a I exceed my own limits is another matter, but since I only test the limits where it's safe to spin I don't really care what happens when I let it get the best of me.

Anyone who can't look at your post, and my response, and see the preferences for what they really are, is never going to understand, so unless something really FUBAR turns up on some of the posts I haven't read yet, I'm done here.

Thanks for your input Vishnus11. I get sick and tired of acknowledging the improvements in later cars every time I say something about the differences in the AP1 that make some people prefer it. For my money we've covered all the bases now and the thread is done too.

LOL, before walking away I can't resist throwing a little gasoline on the fire, just for the fun of it. Roll understeer increases a cars total grip, so the AP1 generates about the same grip in a smooth corner as the AP2, in spite of the AP2's larger tires and wheels. The difference in grip is far less than the difference in contact patch size, so how much of the loss is a function of the missing roll understeer, and how much is a function of the new tire compound and construction. The lower profile should generate greater grip if all else were equal, so why don't the AP2's generate greater grip.

(I *think* it's mostly due to the tire compound being softer on the S02's, because they also wear out a lot faster.)

It was a good discussion guys, and thanks to Vishnus11 post we've now touched all the bases.
Somebody else can respond to any follow-on questions if they like. I think everything that needs to be said has been said.

SilverKnight

Rx-8 Owners also

I can't belive these posts still go on Its always the same old arguments and each AP1 and Ap2 owners trying to defend their model.

Now that my s2k is sold, and if had to buy an s2k again, I would go for an Ap2 for better looks and better powerband and just newness, but I still like the 2003 for the 9k. But how often did I rev to 9k? not much so it wouldn't be the deal breaker for me. In the end both cars lack torque

RED MX5

Thanks for posting such a nice response.

I do hope that you read enough of the thread, and enough of my posts, to realize that I'm not one of the guys who is claiming that one car is superior to the other. I just think that they're different enough for some people to prefer one over the other, and it is amazing to me that everyone can't understand that.

The 9k red line doesn't make the F20C any faster, but the extra displacement of the F22C yields more torque and more power, and most importantly, a greater area under the torque curve. All 9k does is make the F20C one of the kings of high specific output, and give the car a higher red line, which some stupid people think makes it more race car like. Count me as one of those stupid people, FWIW. If a higher red line isn't more race car like then why not put a truck engine in the car? Almost everyone who buys an S2000 likes the high red line, and the guys with a higher red line like that more than the lower red line. It seems to me that there is nothing at all hard to understand about that, but somehow it always gets lost in these threads.

I think (and might be totally wrong ) that most of the AP1 owners fully understand how much the car has been improved over the years, but that some of them simply do not like all of the improvements. I don't like any of the raised trim levels after '01, or the changes to the engine, or the calming of what some have found to be twichy handling, but they are improvements that most people will like.

These discussions go to pot because some AP1 owner will state why he likes his car and no matter how he says it, some AP2 owner will get in a snit. LOL, in a way that is becoming another reason to be a proud AP1 owner. j/k

Note how the thread has turned out. We've had a complete list of the changes posted, and the justifications for those changes. Then we've had someone with an AP1 explain why they prefer their AP1 in spite of the changes (and becasue of some of them). Every time we discuss this a few people get it, but this time we may have actully touched all the bases, so do you really think the thread was/is a waste of time?

__redruM

Sure, though the video helps see the subjective difference. And on a road course, the larger tire patch has to help. But on to average times.

I did these two cause they had about 12 S2000s each, but suggest a set with a larger group and I'll take a look. The average AP2 time is better in both cases:
Ft Myers:
AP1: 102.6035
AP2: 100.2902

Peru:
AP1: 115.6533
AP2: 110.815

There are a lot of numbers at scca.org, certainly enough to make it worth investigating if you're really interested. This may prove that the average driver can do better with the AP2, but I'd guess that Autocrossers are a little better than average...

RED MX5

Nice job of digging out some averages for us.

Seems to me that this verifies what some of us have been saying all along. Any differences in quarter mile performance are very small, either within the range of measurement error or within the range of driver skill levels and consistency.

I still question the autocross times as a basis for comparison, unless the cars being compared are running stock suspension and tires, because as I understand it, we're comparing stock to stock, not modified to modified. The AP2 may well have a head start when it comes to dialing the car in using larger stickier tires. If we look at times at the Nationals or Pro Series we're looking at altered cars, and if we look at local level events then the times are all over the place because of the wide variance in driver skills.

If we could get times from cars autocrossing on OEM tires, and get enough of them to give us meaningful results (a good figure of merit) then it would be interesting to see how the bell curves of the two cars compare. I'd guess that the AP1 bell would be more skewed than the AP2 bell, but it would be interesting to see for sure.

In my case, at the local level, and ignoring class differences, I usually beat everyone else running on street tires and at least a few of the guys running R compound tires or racing rubber. Of course with the SC/AC, diff, gears, springs, and alignment tweaking, you'd have to take my word when I say that the sum of all the mods is very close to a net zero as far as handling goes, with the car being slightly more sensitive to driver inputs, due to the extra power and quicker acting LSD. I can't prove to anyone that the car handles the same but walks a narrower line, but hopefully most of you can think about how the changes would be expected to change the handling and see that what I am saying makes sense. Because some of what I am saying about the way the changes have affected the handling are subjective (my little difference might be a big difference for someone else, and vice versa), but FWIW more power and a quickler acting positive locking LSD make a car either more sensitive to, or more responsive to, driver inputs, so at least the real car guys won't have to depend totally on my claim. LOL, the guys who watch me autocross don't believe me, because they think my car is harder to drive than theirs, not based on driving it, but based on the way I slide it around sometimes. I think they're just afraid that it will get away from them (and it can, very easily).

Anyway, the twitchiness and nervousness of the AP1 has been made worse in my car, because I can both stand and enjoy a higher level, a finer line if you will. At the last Evolution Phase 2 school in Atlanta one of the instructors turned a textbook run in my car, and had NOTHING but good things to say about the handling, but I can assure you, anyone who finds the stock AP1 twitchy or nervous would have nothing but complaints about the handling. Not everyone drives the same way though, and some people's twitchy are just fine in other hands. I find it challenging and exciting, and ANY S2000 offers up razor sharp handling, in spades. The AP1 just has a sharper edge to it that most seem to find it a bit too much. That doesn't make the people who prefer it wrong, it just means that they don't like the same things.

_redruM, I applaude your efforts.

How man of the people who have complained about this thread are AP1 owners, and how many are AP2 owners? That might tell us more about which group is being more vain about their cars.

__redruM

If I spend 30K on something, I better be a rabbid fanboi
Enjoy the weekend...

RED MX5

Just a comment for those who hate the AP1/AP2 threads. Please note that a number of members are actually enjoying the discussion. That's why S2kI is here, so we can get together and have enjoyable discussions. Nobody has to read any of the threads or posts if they don't like a particular discussion, and reading threads you hate just so you can post in them and complain doesn't add to anyone else's enjoyment. Sure, you have as much of a right to express your opinion as anyone, but would you go to an old folks home and tell all the people there that they smell funny? Personally I'd think that to be very rude behavior, and I don't see how it is any different from telling a bunch of people who are enjoying a thread that their thread sucks. Before calling for a thread to be locked, you should at least read enough of the thread to see whether or not it is productive and civilized. If there is ANY VALID REASON for this thread to be locked, other than the irritating posts from people who don't like the topic, then somebody please point it out to the moderators so they can explain it to us and then lock the thread.

That's my last comment on people who hate the topic and feel compelled to let us know how stupid we are. I'd rather they go to the home and pick at the people for the way they smell.

RED MX5

Thanks for chiming in. In spite of the negative comments, most of the people seem to be enjoying the discussion.

To my eye, the S2000 just keeps getting prettier and prettier. LOL, maybe I see the early cars as being more butch.

RED MX5

I'm no Ferrari expert, but I think all the production V-12's were either just under 3.0l or larger.

Wasn't the 250TR rating units "gross HP" rather than net? Wouldn't it be more like 200-250 using the same measurements and units used by Honda to rate the S2000?

RED MX5

I lost touch with this thread because our internet service was down for a couple days, but I think I'm in almost total agreement with Negcamber. He seems more certain that the original is better in the hands of the best drivers than I am, but I know for a fact that the thin line my AP1 walks at the limit has made me a MUCH BETTER DRIVER, no matter what I'm driving, and the AP2 walks a wider line which would not have benefitted me as much. I needed a car that required more finesse than I had to enable the improvement, and the AP2 wasn't the right car for that job. Now that the stock AP1 has become easy to drive we've added power, gears, and an aggressive differential so that it will respond even more quickly and demand further improvements. I want MY S2000 to force me to rise to it's capabilities, so I started with an early AP1 and once I had it well in hand we made it even more aggressive.

Not to be rude about it, because it's really just a funciton of our different driving styles, but I am certain that there are some here who would not be able to drive my car for a week without smashing it up. If you think the AP1 has nasty handling you'd think my car was totally undrivable and totally insane, but the fact that multi-time national Solo 2 champions have found the handling to their liking and the fact that it works for me tells me that the car is not the problem. I could stand quicker steering in my AP1, as could anyone who drives anything like I do (or like my Evolution School instructors drive). I don't consider myself qualified to evaluate a cars handling for anyone other than myself (either I like it, or I don't), but the Evolution instructors DO have the experience and skills to evaluate a cars handling, and my twitchier than stock AP1 is not too twichy for any of them. Not ANY of them. They all have nothing but positive comments about the car, and their job is to recommend ways to improve both the driver and the car. Not ONCE have they suggested any changes to my horrible handling twitchy nervous AP1, and that tells me at least as much about the way the car handles as my own feelings about the way it handles.

In competent hands, when handled with finesse, the AP1 handling is first rate. The fact that not all of Honda's customers like driving a car that was set up by professional drivers for people of like talent does not constitute any kind of handling "problem" in the car. However, jumping from that to concluding that the best drivers can get more out of the AP1 seems to be a bit of a stretch to me. It might be true; Might not be. I think it depends on one's driving style and skill level and that either car will be the quicker depending on who is behind the wheel. My car is way quicker on the autocross course and in straight line acceleration now, in part because of the mods, and in part because of the schools I've attended and all the practice I've had in the car. We've changed the car a little to better match what we want from it, but the biggest gains have come from improving the driver (the loose nut behind the wheel ), and a big part of that improvement was facilitated by the requirement for finesse that is a part of the AP1 package.

Negcamber seems to have it nailed, but I'm just less sure than he is about which car is actually faster in expert hands.