All Early Model Owners: Worry About Your Transmission
03-18-2002, 01:52 PM
#41
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by cmnsnse
[B]
Like I said earlier, I had no problems with Many Many long trips in the S, just this time I pushed it harder than ever - 420 miles in less than 5 hours? that works out to 87mph average, AVERAGE, including stops!
[B]
Like I said earlier, I had no problems with Many Many long trips in the S, just this time I pushed it harder than ever - 420 miles in less than 5 hours? that works out to 87mph average, AVERAGE, including stops!
03-18-2002, 02:42 PM
#43
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Cmnsnse,
I'm most interested in your findings, as it may corrolate to my own gearbox problems. Have you looked at the pressure readings during accelaration and under braking. I suspect that under heavy braking The oil will flow forwards and away from the pump pickup. Will the extra volume of oil at the front compensate for the lack of pumped oil? What happens when going down hill? SFO owners beware
My problems started with the replacement gearbox fitted by Honda UK in August 2000. This was to replace the original 'box which suffered from the 2nd gear grind. The new 'box has never seemed right to me, as it rattles and clonks and I often have difficulty selecting first / second / third and sixth. Now with another 18,000 miles on the car, I am trying to get a replacement. The trouble is that my problems are intermittent and two dealers have not experienced them.
I am currently trying to establish which conditions cause the problem. I am now certain that the main problem is after driving at speed. If I'm driving at 60 - 85 mph approaching a junction, the selection problems are more likely to occur. I realized this on Saturday, driving round my local town on my commuting route .... dual-carriageway separated by roundabouts. I usually change down the gears third - second - first when approaching a junction. If the conditions are right, first / second or third are difficult to select and selection may be accompanied by a clonk or bang. I sometimes also get a whine on decelaration. When moving away, I may get a groaning, clicking noise and moving up through the gears they are more notchy and possibly kick back the gear lever on engaging gear. I also get a ping-like sound from the gearbox if I creep the car forward or backward and de-clutch. The ping happens after the clutch has disengaged and sounds like something sliding in the box and hitting something.
I've wondered for a while if it is heat or lubrication related. Your finding would indicate the latter. If I'm traveling at 80mph, slowing down, possibly steering left to enter the roundabout, is it likely that oil pressure will be low? If I then stop, there is no oil flow. If I was to accelerate hard, changing up at 5,500 rpm, how long would it take for oil pressure to recover? Alternatively, if there was too much oil, could that prevent the syncro rings from engaging?
I went for a test drive with the dealer today. When he was driving, he stayed in second to enter a roundabout at 12mph, whereas I would have changed to second. This is one scenario, where I have problems with first. He also changed up to fourth in a 30 mph limit, where I would stay in third. I think this is important to the circumstances which cause the problem, but I believe that I am driving to Honda's recommended speeds. The owners manual lists the shift points as 15 / 25 / 40 / 47 / 52 mph. On this basis, 4th should not be selected until 40 mph! He's prepared to experiment a bit more when they next have the car. Of course, if it all goes bang, I'll call him sooner. I have some OBD2 software on order, when I have it, I shall try to record the gearbox noises and log the speed / rpm. This should give me chance to identify the circumstances when my problem occurs.
I have the official Honda Shop manual for my2000, which covers all variants of the S2000. According to that, there is only one sequence of gearbox numbers. I do not know if there are ranges within that number, but I would be surprised. My original gearbox was SCYM-1010225, number 10225 sounds about right for a Jan 2000 delivery (20,000 cars/year starting mid 1999). I'm afraid that I don't have my current gearbox number to hand at the moment. FWIW you should probably look at more than the last four digits of your gearbox number, 9,999 units will not go far.
I'm most interested in your findings, as it may corrolate to my own gearbox problems. Have you looked at the pressure readings during accelaration and under braking. I suspect that under heavy braking The oil will flow forwards and away from the pump pickup. Will the extra volume of oil at the front compensate for the lack of pumped oil? What happens when going down hill? SFO owners beware
My problems started with the replacement gearbox fitted by Honda UK in August 2000. This was to replace the original 'box which suffered from the 2nd gear grind. The new 'box has never seemed right to me, as it rattles and clonks and I often have difficulty selecting first / second / third and sixth. Now with another 18,000 miles on the car, I am trying to get a replacement. The trouble is that my problems are intermittent and two dealers have not experienced them.
I am currently trying to establish which conditions cause the problem. I am now certain that the main problem is after driving at speed. If I'm driving at 60 - 85 mph approaching a junction, the selection problems are more likely to occur. I realized this on Saturday, driving round my local town on my commuting route .... dual-carriageway separated by roundabouts. I usually change down the gears third - second - first when approaching a junction. If the conditions are right, first / second or third are difficult to select and selection may be accompanied by a clonk or bang. I sometimes also get a whine on decelaration. When moving away, I may get a groaning, clicking noise and moving up through the gears they are more notchy and possibly kick back the gear lever on engaging gear. I also get a ping-like sound from the gearbox if I creep the car forward or backward and de-clutch. The ping happens after the clutch has disengaged and sounds like something sliding in the box and hitting something.
I've wondered for a while if it is heat or lubrication related. Your finding would indicate the latter. If I'm traveling at 80mph, slowing down, possibly steering left to enter the roundabout, is it likely that oil pressure will be low? If I then stop, there is no oil flow. If I was to accelerate hard, changing up at 5,500 rpm, how long would it take for oil pressure to recover? Alternatively, if there was too much oil, could that prevent the syncro rings from engaging?
I went for a test drive with the dealer today. When he was driving, he stayed in second to enter a roundabout at 12mph, whereas I would have changed to second. This is one scenario, where I have problems with first. He also changed up to fourth in a 30 mph limit, where I would stay in third. I think this is important to the circumstances which cause the problem, but I believe that I am driving to Honda's recommended speeds. The owners manual lists the shift points as 15 / 25 / 40 / 47 / 52 mph. On this basis, 4th should not be selected until 40 mph! He's prepared to experiment a bit more when they next have the car. Of course, if it all goes bang, I'll call him sooner. I have some OBD2 software on order, when I have it, I shall try to record the gearbox noises and log the speed / rpm. This should give me chance to identify the circumstances when my problem occurs.
I have the official Honda Shop manual for my2000, which covers all variants of the S2000. According to that, there is only one sequence of gearbox numbers. I do not know if there are ranges within that number, but I would be surprised. My original gearbox was SCYM-1010225, number 10225 sounds about right for a Jan 2000 delivery (20,000 cars/year starting mid 1999). I'm afraid that I don't have my current gearbox number to hand at the moment. FWIW you should probably look at more than the last four digits of your gearbox number, 9,999 units will not go far.
03-18-2002, 03:05 PM
#44
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S2000RJ / Rob,
WOW, thanks for posting that, judging from your symptoms I would say the damage is already done.
Under hard braking the increased volume may possibly help up front, but just down a slight grade would be damaging if extended and at high speed. I didnt go that far with the testing, I now have alot more conditions to test under, but the weather is very wet here and I do not want to bring it out in the rain for that.
During acceleration, Im sure the oil pressure is fine, as the oil is forced to the rear and the vehicle is lifted in the front. IF you are decelerating from 80mph and to the left, it is possible the pressure is ZERO, once sucking air there is no flow at all.
As for Honda's shift point recommendations, umm yeah right, thats why they gave us a 9000 red line
I know the manual says that, but I would say those are the minimum speeds, just take the service manager out for a romp.
As for the VIN number, Im using the donor vehicles VIN number which is stamped on a plate. It is adequate because only 9,1xx cars were imported to the US that year.
WOW, thanks for posting that, judging from your symptoms I would say the damage is already done.
Under hard braking the increased volume may possibly help up front, but just down a slight grade would be damaging if extended and at high speed. I didnt go that far with the testing, I now have alot more conditions to test under, but the weather is very wet here and I do not want to bring it out in the rain for that.
During acceleration, Im sure the oil pressure is fine, as the oil is forced to the rear and the vehicle is lifted in the front. IF you are decelerating from 80mph and to the left, it is possible the pressure is ZERO, once sucking air there is no flow at all.
As for Honda's shift point recommendations, umm yeah right, thats why they gave us a 9000 red line
I know the manual says that, but I would say those are the minimum speeds, just take the service manager out for a romp.
As for the VIN number, Im using the donor vehicles VIN number which is stamped on a plate. It is adequate because only 9,1xx cars were imported to the US that year.
03-18-2002, 03:51 PM
#45
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by cmnsnse
[B]
Just to be sure, are those TRUE averages - total distance/time or just a speed you/they normally hang?
Most people would say my average speed was 100 that fateful day, but over all the true average was around 87. That means speeds of 142 were reached in moderate duration
QUOTE]
The traffic average was how fast the traffic was flowing, so yes, the traffic's true average is lower.
The 'some guys' speeds were true averages (odometer change / total elapsed time) of ...um...people I know. Since you are from AZ, you know how empty I-8W and I-10W are when you get away from Phoenix. It's very easy to set the cruise to 110 for a couple of hours.
[B]
Just to be sure, are those TRUE averages - total distance/time or just a speed you/they normally hang?
Most people would say my average speed was 100 that fateful day, but over all the true average was around 87. That means speeds of 142 were reached in moderate duration
QUOTE]
The traffic average was how fast the traffic was flowing, so yes, the traffic's true average is lower.
The 'some guys' speeds were true averages (odometer change / total elapsed time) of ...um...people I know. Since you are from AZ, you know how empty I-8W and I-10W are when you get away from Phoenix. It's very easy to set the cruise to 110 for a couple of hours.
03-18-2002, 04:00 PM
#48
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My shift forks were eithin honda's spec but still caused my tranny problem, I really hope that what you see is indead just a bum tranny as I travel in excess of 100+ every day on the freeway for upwards of 20-30 miles at a time. There are several heavily banked left turns throughout my commute and I am starting to get officially worried. If you do find the tranny gauge with some decent acuraccy post it up. It would be something that I would like to mount to my A pillar. Just one more gauge to watch for my peice of mind.
03-18-2002, 04:01 PM
#49
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tanqueray
[B]
The 'some guys' speeds were true averages (odometer change / total elapsed time) of ...um...people I know.
[B]
The 'some guys' speeds were true averages (odometer change / total elapsed time) of ...um...people I know.