Barry in Wyoming

...and "low oil" ... Don't forget low oil. ... "You didn't check the oil at EVERY oil change so you must have had low oil."

At least in my case, not a single one of those explanations above fits. By the book break-in. Oil level normal. No mods. No racing. No misses shifts.

The truth is that, at this time, NO ONE KNOWS why my engine or Jason Saini's engine failed, although their failures were identical. I think Jason's friend whose engine failed at 1,200 was also a #4 cylinder failure that sounded like "valve noise."

AHM and Honda Japan deserve a chance to analyze the histories and removed short blocks of the VERY FEW #4 cylinder failures and come up with a fix. I bet they will. I seriously doubt they will tell us what the fix is.

I'd love to know what the difference is between the '00 and '01 pistons.

My engine sounds great now EXCEPT I heard the dreaded tap tap tap for about two seconds when I started my engine today! I've got 215 miles on the new short block with zero time above 5,500 rpm, most driving in the 3,000 to 4,000 zone.

Concerning AutoEX's engine, it sure would have been nice if the mechanic had taken the engine apart in a way that gives Honda one more data point on what failed. Even better, he could have let AutoEX (and the rest of us) know. Too bad that didn't happen. At this point, it is not likely we on this board will really know if AutoEX's failure was another "#4 cylinder scoring / #4 piston slap" failure.

Barry in Wyoming

Dorian Gray

If Barry heard the dreaded "Tap-Tap-Tap" again, could the problem be with the oil pump?.

Tim

Hey guys, I'm not saying I am 100% correct, but temperature has something to do with it. Maybe it is an engineering flaw in the head or block that doesn't allow enough heat to be built in the #4 cylinder. That is the cylinder that fails the most frequently. But I know of cases where every othe cylinder has also failed. And it doesn't just happen to one year car and not the other, both have been reported. Some other high performance engines have been known to have the same problem, on extremely high output applications. You have to also keep in mind that the F20c is a high output engine from the factory, and there are sacrifices made in longevity for performance. Do you know of any other 120 hp/liter 4 cyliders? No production cars, and there is a reason for that, why build a 4, when you can build a 6 that will make the same numbers that isn't working as hard. Maybe Honda has more balls? I've heard of cases where these engines fail with under 500 miles on them, and those same people bitch about the fact that their car won't go into V-TEC, because they have only been driving it for 2 minutes. No offense but alot of it has to do with owner ignorance, not allowing the engine to reach full operating temp. Basically I think there is an engineering problem that is amplified by owner ignorance. Do I know for sure, no, does Honda?

malachi

i would love to hear from an owner of a 2000 year model s2k with this issue. given that we have a statistically relevant sampling it would be very odd to discover this.

yes, the engine is high output. but i don't buy that honda would sacrifice longevity to the point of failure in less than 1k miles. ever.

finally, knowing honda i can't see them not discovering this (if the explanation were true) and not tying VTEC to oil temp or at least going with an oil temp gauge.

i'd love to believe it, but logic and statistical science simply make it difficult to do so.

given the ACTUAL (not rumoured) data we have to date we need to see an explanation that satisfies the basic requirements here (MY 2001 only, #4 cylinder only, cars that have babied, cars that have full oil, cars that have been raced, cars that have not, etc.).

given our data points it seems to me:
- something in the internals of the engine or the engine coolant system changed between MY 2000 and MY 2001.
- this change introduced a *potential* flaw that occurs in a small percentage of engines which results in catastrophic cylinder #4 failure.
- cylinder failure is not brought on by any specific "input" (i.e. low oil, missed downshift, aftermarket parts, etc.) but seems to be random.

suggestions?

-c

Barry in Wyoming

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim
[B]Hey guys, I'm not saying I am 100% correct, but temperature has something to do with it. ...

2kturkey

Tim, I'm a bit puzzled by some of your comments but I agree with your point on temperature being a possible cause of F20C engine failure.

I don't know much about the cooling system design but it is possible there is an airlock occuring somewhere in the vicinity of the rear most cylinder and as a result it is not properly being cooled. It's possible Honda has relaxed it's procedure for ensuring all air is eliminated from the cooling system - this would explain the 01 problems. I know Ford in Australia had a similar problem with its Falcon (4 litre straight 6) engines 10 years ago and destroyed a lot of engines before they tightened up their procedure.

With regard to the F20C being a 6 rather than a 4 there would be minimal extra stress on the motor if it was a 6 - it is the total engine capacity rather than the individual cylinder capacity that determines the majority of the stress on the motor.

As far as other 120hp/litre 4 cylinders go there are heaps of them out there. Look at motorcycle engines (yes Hondas too) - they are getting over 200hp/litre out of naturally aspirated air (now there's a real cooling problem for you!) and water cooled motors without difficulty. When it comes to autos I can think of at least 50 different turbo motors delivering over the 120hp/litre figure and let's face it, we all know turbos run hotter than NA motors!