autoxEX

02-02-2001 07:26 AM


I stopped by the dealer yesterday to check up on my car and found out that they had pulled the head off
of the motor. Here is what happened to my motor:

Apparently, the rod bearing that connected to the rod and piston broke. They had pulled out the bearing
and it was sitting there in what looked to be my oil pan, but the bearing was split in half, I took some pics
and I'll post it as soon as I can. This caused the rod and piston to break loose and begin clanking against
my cylinder walls. However, I don't know which cylinder it is or what caused the damage. Anyone want to
step in here, I'm no mechanic.

I can tell you that it was NOT due to driver abuse, power shifting, over revving, (oh, this is my favorite
question I was asked, "did you add alcohol to the motor") and all those other typical questions that are
asked when a motor fails. I broke in the car perfectly varying my RPMs, the throttle, and the amount of
time I was driving it. I hit vtec a few times at 600 miles but didn't even go WOT until after 1000 miles. The
only mods I have on the car is Rick's leather accesories which is good for about +5 hp to the wheels
which probably caused the engine to fail on me.

The short block on the car was also pulled yesterday and sent back to AHM for them to inspect it, so I'm
supposed to get a new short block in this week. While they have the car apart, I have requested to install
a Toda flywheel and perhaps a new clutch? I'm not sure about the clutch though, it's a "Honda clutch"
(that's the name of it) designed by one of their parts guys and its supposed to have much more grip than
the stock and Mugen clutch. However, seeing that my car is barely a month old, I may just do the
flywheel and settle with the stock clutch for now. Does anyone know where I can get a Toda flywheel
asap, like overnight? My car is scheduled to be back on the public roads next Thursday, but I'm not
holding my breath.

Here is the thread that originally began:
http://www.s2000online.com/forums/showthre...p?threadid=6057

Jason Saini

Good call on starting a new thread... that other one got kinda messy! I can't even begin to guess what caused your failure, EX. I guess it could also be attributed to a lack of oiling or excessive heat in #4. Have you been able to determine what cylinder it was? Was the bearing discolored from heat when you saw it out of the car?

BTW, I wouldn't do the flywheel... IMO it's limited performance gains that will preclude you from ever running in Stock-Class for autocrossing. While an ASP S2000 is a reality, it's also an expesive reality. I'd think about it before going that route. I'd just have them put the stock parts back in... it's easier on your wallet, too.

Good luck with the repair... post those pictures when you can, and keep us posted on the progress. Try to find out what cylinder it was... BTW, where was the shortblock when you were at the dealer? It seems to me they wouldn't send it back without the bearing material that you photographed.

Tox

If I understand you correctly, you're saying the connecting rod had detached completely from the crank, and the rod and piston were sort of freelancing in the cylinder? (BTW, rod bearings come in two pieces, but don't generally drop into the oil pan! One of the rod bolts probably broke, either because it was defective or torqued improperly.)

You'd better take a good look at the condition of the head before you let them use it again. If there's any visible mark in the #4 combustion chamber (or anywhere else on it), consider demanding a complete replacement engine.

I'm sorry to hear about this, and good luck.

gregstevens

Yes, I'm also glad that you started a new thread. I'm very interested in getting to the bottom of this. I was thinking, and this may not quite fit in here, but I'm curious.

When the dealer said they did a compression check and found that it was normal...it got me to thinking. Had you had the same problem of cylinder wall scoring by the skirt of the piston, taking a compression check would still reveal a more less normal compression ratio. Here's why I think that. Compression ratios, as I remember them (OK, high school auto mechanics was almost 20 years ago! .. ) are measured when the piston is at the top of the cylinder...which means that the rings would be above the scoring on the walls, thereby giving you a more or less correct compression ratio...which would square with the idea that it was the same problem that Jason had...

So, my point is that a compression ratio test to determine the nature of the problem would not have given you any indication of what the real problem was. Just a useless test in this case...but, sure why not, they are easy to perform...so wtf, you may as well do it. But...

That also gets me to thinking that if your piston had detached (more or less) as Tox brilliantly put it "freelancing" around in the cylinder, then you wouldn't have SQUAT for compression in that cylinder.

Which leads me to believe they were either trying to pull the wool over your eyes, or they haven't a clue as to what they are doing...

Yea, I'm rambling, but do you guys see my point? AutoxEX was told that his compression ratio was just fine...

Does anyone else see the holes in the service dept's story? Or am I just being a prick...as usual.

Thoughts?!?

Jason Saini

Yes, Greg... very astute. I hadn't even caught that. If the rod broke, then there would be no compression in that cylinder. Add to that the fact that the short block is nowhere to be found, and there's a broken bearing sitting in the oil pan, and this dealer is beginning to look really suspicious... I'd watch yourself, EX. Push them a little harder for information. They owe you an explanation. Don't be mean, just say you want to understand what they found. Please post what they say! This is pretty interesting...

malachi

the dealer's explanation sounds fishy indeed.
would you be willing to post the dealer name?

is there any way to check directly with AHM on the status/damage?

-c

sp7128

why doesn't someone or EX contact the dealer and get a proper response to the problem or have the dealer post to the board .....why would the honda dealer talk in circles...........they didn't cause the problem and neither did EX.........they are there to repair/replace what needs to be done....AHM is so involved in these (s2000)cars and the owner satisfaction ..that they are just as interested in what happenned as all of us are....i came in on the start of this new thread so i don't what was or wasn't posted before....but if the dealer let pictures be taken they sure aren't "pullin any wool over any eyes"...i'm just as interested in the problem as all of you so i can keep my eyes peeled on the 20 or so s2000 we have sold ...... just checked and the shortblocks are available from AHM and not on backorder (wonders never cease).........

sp7128

gregstevens

Read this thread to get a full background on this situation...

http://www.s2000online.com/forums/showthre...p?threadid=6057

My issue is why did the dealer say that the compression ratio was normal...when it doesn't seem to square with the diagnosis they provided? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if the piston is 'freelancing' around in the cylinder, then you just ain't got no compression or at the VERY most, you have maybe a 1/3 of what would be considered normal. Yet, Mr. EX was told that it was normal. That just doesn't sound right at all to me...

sp7128

just looked up 00 vs 01 part#'s

shortblock assy is the same 00/01
crankshaft is same 00/01
connecting rods same00/01

pistons have different numbers
but the shortblock assy has the same part number and the pistons are in the shortblock assy .....wierd

and the cylinder head is the same 00/01

sp7128

cdelena

There is a very good chance that this failure would never impact a compression test. Most bearing failures do not.

The bearing that they showed you could well be the problem.. as mentioned above it is split because that is the way they come (only way to get them around the crank journal). A bearing that fails will often just spin or scar then making noise (and deteriorating) on every rev. The other end of the rod has the piston and pin which can also fail in various ways making noise on every rev. Rarely do these pieces come apart, especially in new street driven engines.

A small percentage of bearing failures in high rpm engines are a fact of life. As long as you get a complete short block there should be no lingering problem. I cannot imagine why you would have any head damage.