2004 First Oil Change
01-30-2004 | 01:06 PM
#21
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
From: Portugal
srlmartin and shiftright, nobody is telling you guys to do anything! Road Rage and xviper are just giving their opinions. What they say is based on their expertise and experience. And from what I've read from them, they do have great experience and expertise!
The manual is not a holy bible. Honda engineers, like anyone, can do mistakes.
Rogerio.
The manual is not a holy bible. Honda engineers, like anyone, can do mistakes.
Rogerio.
01-30-2004 | 01:31 PM
#22
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
From: Seabrook
The manual is not a holy bible. Honda engineers, like anyone, can do mistakes.
Rogerio. [/QUOTE]
Rogerio, your logic completely escapes me!!!!
Honda engineers can make mistakes, you grant, but not Road Rage and xviper!!?
I will take xviper and Road Rage's advice over the Honda engineer's advice on the very day that xviper and Road Rage develop and build the Honda S2000, thank you very much
Rogerio. [/QUOTE]
Rogerio, your logic completely escapes me!!!!
Honda engineers can make mistakes, you grant, but not Road Rage and xviper!!?
I will take xviper and Road Rage's advice over the Honda engineer's advice on the very day that xviper and Road Rage develop and build the Honda S2000, thank you very much
01-30-2004 | 01:59 PM
#23
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 37,305
Likes: 16
I think you'd better put us both on your IGNORE LIST. Heaven forbid that you accidentally read one of our "suggestions and opinions" and mistake it for something you might have read in your owner's manual. And since neither of us will ever build an S2000, there is absolutely no point in reading anything we have to post.
PLEASE, noone is forcing anyone to do ANYTHING! Believe it. Don't believe it. Do it. Don't do it. Trust me! Road Rage and I DON'T CARE!
Oh, you know that whole business about the old oiljet bolts? Funny how your new car has them now and they retrofitted them on all European cars! 
PLEASE, noone is forcing anyone to do ANYTHING! Believe it. Don't believe it. Do it. Don't do it. Trust me! Road Rage and I DON'T CARE!
Oh, you know that whole business about the old oiljet bolts? Funny how your new car has them now and they retrofitted them on all European cars!
01-30-2004 | 01:59 PM
#24
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
From: Oberlin
Humm, Typical flamefest. Please don't be offended by me. I've gathered valuble info from both of you, RR & Xviper. Thanks for taking my side, Shiftright. I rarely post here, this is a good example of why.
-Shon
-Shon
01-30-2004 | 02:11 PM
#25
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
From: Portugal
Originally posted by shiftright
Honda engineers can make mistakes, you grant, but not Road Rage and xviper!!?
Honda engineers can make mistakes, you grant, but not Road Rage and xviper!!?
If Honda engineers were faultless, every Honda car would be perfect...
Why TSBs then?
01-30-2004 | 02:38 PM
#27
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,731
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, AB
I would not be following the manual 100%. Honda has known to be wrong on many things.
Personally, I'm changing my engine oil on my '04 @ 1,500 miles w/ regular dino oil, and then going to synthetic @ 3,000 miles.
Personally, I'm changing my engine oil on my '04 @ 1,500 miles w/ regular dino oil, and then going to synthetic @ 3,000 miles.
01-30-2004 | 03:13 PM
#29
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,660
Likes: 2
From: Midlothian
I had planned to stay out of this, as it is as fruitless an exercise as trying to discuss abortion. I know what I know and believe, based on my training and experience. On topics of lubrication, I will match wits with any Honda engineer, anytime.
What anyone chooses to do with any statements or advice I may make is entirely up to them. But blanket statements like "Honda Knows" does not settle anything - Honda engineers have certainly made many mistakes, as all of us have. What does that prove? Nothing more than human frailty.
I am unaware of any other automobile that has such a "dictatorial" first oil change rule as does the S2000 . Even my NSX manual merely states to take it easy on the brakes until 200 miles, and avoid full throttle acceleration on the engine until 600. There is no TSB or mention of the strict first oil-change theory in the Honda Shop Manual published by Helms - they can assume that Honda service techs will use a quality oil product. By that cannot be since it is not in The Good Book (the Owner's Manual). Oh well, my bad.
The "going by the book" theme breaks down in this situation: at 100 miles, due to a faulty main bearing cap tightening at the factory, your engine has a damaged crankshaft. The engine has to be disassembled and repaired. What do you think the Honda service technicians will do? Re-use the factory fill? Of course not. Yet, nowhere in the Honda Owner's Manual ("The Bible") or the Helm Shop manual ("The New Testament"?) does it say anything about obtaining "break-in oil", or recommending any specific additive for this purpose. The Shop Manual makes no warning or prohibition about not changing the oil until 3750 or 7500 miles whatsoever.
Now what, Mr. Going by The Book Man? Whoya gonna call - Ghostbusters? Is it Shiz Out Of Luck time for the Honda owner, at 100 miles? Get real.
And what about the guy who buys the car, drives 500 miles, and then puts the car in storage for 6 months - the time has elasped on the oil, as it will have "timed out" and need to be changed. What then?
I merely stated what I thought based on my engineering training and professional experience. I know that there can be residue from the sand casting of the block and heads, and this is not good for the engine, so I always change oil at 1000 miles. The only thing about Honda's "Break-In oil" that has ever appeared to be special is a high level of molybdenum, about which i could write pages that would give you a headache. Go to UTH and search on nanomutation. So my recommendation, which is to drain the engine oil at 1k, fill it with mineral oil, and a can of Mr. Moly** or this:
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/product.asp?product=20
does not strike me as at all as being at odds with any Honda engineer.
The "By the Book" advocates also have conveniently ignored the validity of my statements about how lubrication has changed a lot since 1999, when the Honda break-in oil recommendation was first published - it has not changed since then. Since the lubricity of mineral-based oils has increased a lot since then, why would Honda not have recommended a commensurate increase in the duration of the break-in oil mileage/time interval, and made available a special "break-in oil" to Honda Service Technicians. There is no such product - on what page of the manual is this paradox resolved?
As a practicing tribologist for 10 years, and a member of the SAE, I can assure you that the primary mechanical issue to be addressed by any oil during break-in is scuffing of the following
piston, ring, and cylinder liner. The goal is to ensure that no damage occurs during this time, and that the irregularities in the metallic surfaces of these parts (asperities) are honed, rather than broken off. A quality oil provides this, and high level of moly is particularly effective. Actually, the issue of nanowear has precedence here*, as principle mechanical interaction is at the level of only a few molecules in dimension. Honda engineers want to ensure that the lubricant is not too lubricious (therfore mineral oil recommendation) and is capable of meeting the industry standard API Sequence IVa test, which is essentially an anti-scuffing test sequence.
"According to ILSAC/OIL chairman Bob Olree of General Motors, the Sequence IIIG test will play an important role in ensuring GF-4 oils provide adequate wear protection.
What anyone chooses to do with any statements or advice I may make is entirely up to them. But blanket statements like "Honda Knows" does not settle anything - Honda engineers have certainly made many mistakes, as all of us have. What does that prove? Nothing more than human frailty.
I am unaware of any other automobile that has such a "dictatorial" first oil change rule as does the S2000 . Even my NSX manual merely states to take it easy on the brakes until 200 miles, and avoid full throttle acceleration on the engine until 600. There is no TSB or mention of the strict first oil-change theory in the Honda Shop Manual published by Helms - they can assume that Honda service techs will use a quality oil product. By that cannot be since it is not in The Good Book (the Owner's Manual). Oh well, my bad.
The "going by the book" theme breaks down in this situation: at 100 miles, due to a faulty main bearing cap tightening at the factory, your engine has a damaged crankshaft. The engine has to be disassembled and repaired. What do you think the Honda service technicians will do? Re-use the factory fill? Of course not. Yet, nowhere in the Honda Owner's Manual ("The Bible") or the Helm Shop manual ("The New Testament"?) does it say anything about obtaining "break-in oil", or recommending any specific additive for this purpose. The Shop Manual makes no warning or prohibition about not changing the oil until 3750 or 7500 miles whatsoever.
Now what, Mr. Going by The Book Man? Whoya gonna call - Ghostbusters? Is it Shiz Out Of Luck time for the Honda owner, at 100 miles? Get real.
And what about the guy who buys the car, drives 500 miles, and then puts the car in storage for 6 months - the time has elasped on the oil, as it will have "timed out" and need to be changed. What then?
I merely stated what I thought based on my engineering training and professional experience. I know that there can be residue from the sand casting of the block and heads, and this is not good for the engine, so I always change oil at 1000 miles. The only thing about Honda's "Break-In oil" that has ever appeared to be special is a high level of molybdenum, about which i could write pages that would give you a headache. Go to UTH and search on nanomutation. So my recommendation, which is to drain the engine oil at 1k, fill it with mineral oil, and a can of Mr. Moly** or this:
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/product.asp?product=20
does not strike me as at all as being at odds with any Honda engineer.
The "By the Book" advocates also have conveniently ignored the validity of my statements about how lubrication has changed a lot since 1999, when the Honda break-in oil recommendation was first published - it has not changed since then. Since the lubricity of mineral-based oils has increased a lot since then, why would Honda not have recommended a commensurate increase in the duration of the break-in oil mileage/time interval, and made available a special "break-in oil" to Honda Service Technicians. There is no such product - on what page of the manual is this paradox resolved?
As a practicing tribologist for 10 years, and a member of the SAE, I can assure you that the primary mechanical issue to be addressed by any oil during break-in is scuffing of the following
piston, ring, and cylinder liner. The goal is to ensure that no damage occurs during this time, and that the irregularities in the metallic surfaces of these parts (asperities) are honed, rather than broken off. A quality oil provides this, and high level of moly is particularly effective. Actually, the issue of nanowear has precedence here*, as principle mechanical interaction is at the level of only a few molecules in dimension. Honda engineers want to ensure that the lubricant is not too lubricious (therfore mineral oil recommendation) and is capable of meeting the industry standard API Sequence IVa test, which is essentially an anti-scuffing test sequence.
"According to ILSAC/OIL chairman Bob Olree of General Motors, the Sequence IIIG test will play an important role in ensuring GF-4 oils provide adequate wear protection.
01-30-2004 | 03:37 PM
#30
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 37,305
Likes: 16
Hirev, through all this debate about "do's and don'ts", I have neglected to address your concerns. In case you have not seen this, have a look. It will answer many of your questions about the actual oil change job:
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.p...?threadid=70348
As for the rest of it. I'm done. It will be a long time before I get into another such "bone of contention" about oil. I simply is not worth it. It almost ALWAYS gets down to ......................................
(It seems sense is NOT so common after all.)
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.p...?threadid=70348
As for the rest of it. I'm done. It will be a long time before I get into another such "bone of contention" about oil. I simply is not worth it. It almost ALWAYS gets down to ......................................
(It seems sense is NOT so common after all.)