S2000 vs E46M3 (not standing start)
12-25-2001, 07:53 PM
#83
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i have raced a few m3's the 2002 models. They are pretty dam quick. i usually get beat about 1 1/2 -> 2 car lengths. but after installing my 75 shot NOS, there is no competion, I can take the new M3's easily 1-2 car lengths.
12-26-2001, 12:32 AM
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Originally posted by M3KVB
I have a unique perspective when it comes to the e46 M3. I owned 1 of the first 50 to arrive int USA. I ordered it 1 1/2 years before its release. I bought it strictly as a investment and quickly turned it over for a nice $5,000.00 profit less than a month later. I enjoyed the car immensley but can honestly say it does not bring a grin to my face as much as hearing that s2000 vtec sound, plus at $20,00.00 more it is just noy worth the extra moey!!
I have a unique perspective when it comes to the e46 M3. I owned 1 of the first 50 to arrive int USA. I ordered it 1 1/2 years before its release. I bought it strictly as a investment and quickly turned it over for a nice $5,000.00 profit less than a month later. I enjoyed the car immensley but can honestly say it does not bring a grin to my face as much as hearing that s2000 vtec sound, plus at $20,00.00 more it is just noy worth the extra moey!!
someone will....
12-26-2001, 05:36 AM
#85
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UL,
Yes, there is a world off difference the eagerness of each car to change directions. The s2k, is more nimble and has razor sharp steering response. One would have to be numb not to appreciate the difference.
I think the difference can be traced to several items; the s2k has a much lower polar moment of inertia, 300lbs or so lighter, stiffer suspension with virtually no pitch, yaw and roll, ultra quick steering. Honda did an amazing job with PMI. Anyway, with a car setup like this, it necessarily means that it can get away from the driver much more quickly. On the flip side, it can be brought back under control much more quickly.
I'm not a big fan of slow steering in the E36 M3, and the overly soft suspension. Nothing I can do about the steering ratio, but I migrated to a set of matched and blueprinted coilovers, along with a couple of structural reinforcements, and polyurethane bushings in strategic points. The difference was phenomenal. It now easily matches the S2k in terms of resisting unwanted weight transfer, and has sharpened steering particularly noticeable at turn-in, noting, however, that I have aggressive alignment settings. The car is now responsive and stiff, although NVH went up somewhat, but still within reason. While stiff, the ride is not uncomfortable (indeed it's far better than my S2k was).
On track performance, I'm faster in my M3 than the S2k. I don't doubt your experience with the car, but inherently and necessarily the S2k will be a twitchier car to drive, and much more difficult to dance at the limit. Of course, I'm talking cornering at 9/10's, with little room for error. The car is incredibly sensitive to trailing throttle oversteer, bumpsteer. Trail braking can get you in trouble in a hurry too. I've heard other track friends claim that the rear suspension geomtry changes too much, causing unwelcome camber changes. I don't know if this is accurate though; but the comparison was made as against the E36 M3. Many people claim that the at-the-limit manners of the M3 are largely due to the car's ability to maintain a contact patch that is remarkable.
At 8500 miles in the S2k and 12000 miles in my M3, I think I have enough seat time in both cars to provide a useful datapoint.
Turning to cars that are more closely their contemporaries, the M Roadster and the M coupe, I think each of these cars can be outhandled by the S2k. I've seen in it on the track, but only in the faster run groups. Novices seem to drive the M Roadster quite a bit faster than the S2k, as expected.
A good friend of mine is a Bridgestone engineer, who spends most of his day on the track evaluating high performance tires. He drives an E36 M3, with a setup similar to mine (blueprinted coilovers, upgraded bushings and structural braces). We recently had a discussion about the S2k, as he has logged more track time on it than most folks here during his evaluation and tweaking of both the S02's and the S03's. One of his comments to me was that it was a better car on the track than either the M coupe or the M Roadster, but not his M3.
Just another datapoint. Take with a grain of salt. YMMV. My 0.02 only.
Jeff
Yes, there is a world off difference the eagerness of each car to change directions. The s2k, is more nimble and has razor sharp steering response. One would have to be numb not to appreciate the difference.
I think the difference can be traced to several items; the s2k has a much lower polar moment of inertia, 300lbs or so lighter, stiffer suspension with virtually no pitch, yaw and roll, ultra quick steering. Honda did an amazing job with PMI. Anyway, with a car setup like this, it necessarily means that it can get away from the driver much more quickly. On the flip side, it can be brought back under control much more quickly.
I'm not a big fan of slow steering in the E36 M3, and the overly soft suspension. Nothing I can do about the steering ratio, but I migrated to a set of matched and blueprinted coilovers, along with a couple of structural reinforcements, and polyurethane bushings in strategic points. The difference was phenomenal. It now easily matches the S2k in terms of resisting unwanted weight transfer, and has sharpened steering particularly noticeable at turn-in, noting, however, that I have aggressive alignment settings. The car is now responsive and stiff, although NVH went up somewhat, but still within reason. While stiff, the ride is not uncomfortable (indeed it's far better than my S2k was).
On track performance, I'm faster in my M3 than the S2k. I don't doubt your experience with the car, but inherently and necessarily the S2k will be a twitchier car to drive, and much more difficult to dance at the limit. Of course, I'm talking cornering at 9/10's, with little room for error. The car is incredibly sensitive to trailing throttle oversteer, bumpsteer. Trail braking can get you in trouble in a hurry too. I've heard other track friends claim that the rear suspension geomtry changes too much, causing unwelcome camber changes. I don't know if this is accurate though; but the comparison was made as against the E36 M3. Many people claim that the at-the-limit manners of the M3 are largely due to the car's ability to maintain a contact patch that is remarkable.
At 8500 miles in the S2k and 12000 miles in my M3, I think I have enough seat time in both cars to provide a useful datapoint.
Turning to cars that are more closely their contemporaries, the M Roadster and the M coupe, I think each of these cars can be outhandled by the S2k. I've seen in it on the track, but only in the faster run groups. Novices seem to drive the M Roadster quite a bit faster than the S2k, as expected.
A good friend of mine is a Bridgestone engineer, who spends most of his day on the track evaluating high performance tires. He drives an E36 M3, with a setup similar to mine (blueprinted coilovers, upgraded bushings and structural braces). We recently had a discussion about the S2k, as he has logged more track time on it than most folks here during his evaluation and tweaking of both the S02's and the S03's. One of his comments to me was that it was a better car on the track than either the M coupe or the M Roadster, but not his M3.
Just another datapoint. Take with a grain of salt. YMMV. My 0.02 only.
Jeff
12-26-2001, 09:57 PM
#86
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The s2k gets even twitchier when lowered
Now that I've had my fill of all that is SE, I'll go back to the civilized side of this site...
12-27-2001, 04:09 AM
#87
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>>The s2k gets even twitchier when lowered <<
>Wrong. I have a lowered S2K and it's no more twitchy than any other S2K. Sorry but this is first hand experience talking<
Hmm, well Steve Millen might disagree with you.
And over at Sport Compact Car they clearly state their POV on the handling characteristics of lowered S2000s. They seem to feel that the twitchiness increases. In their tests the limits appear to drop too. Check out the issue that covered the Comptech and Neuspeed S2ks. Some seem to feel that bump steer and bushing compliance issues are to blame. If so, they are certainly fixable.
Stan
>Wrong. I have a lowered S2K and it's no more twitchy than any other S2K. Sorry but this is first hand experience talking<
Hmm, well Steve Millen might disagree with you.
And over at Sport Compact Car they clearly state their POV on the handling characteristics of lowered S2000s. They seem to feel that the twitchiness increases. In their tests the limits appear to drop too. Check out the issue that covered the Comptech and Neuspeed S2ks. Some seem to feel that bump steer and bushing compliance issues are to blame. If so, they are certainly fixable.
Stan
