Wisconsin S2k

hackmac87

actually the secrets im talking about tons of people know about and use them just mabey not on s2000s.

that was about average dynos of 3 cars. no the VE has increased alot but the small displacment increase and tuning for that increase is where i think honda got the better dyno # for the ap2s, while it is a small increase, at least we got one!

as for the v2.....im going to get flamed for this.........ive seen it dyno on the same day we did the base runs and it put out 16hp in certain rpm.granted it was higher up to the end but the car just breathed so much better/easier.i was suprised.

the hondata #s are from a different dyno day but yes those are the drops we recorded from the scanner.

i think you discredit the stock ecu for what it is. i think youd be suprised at what it can do.the thing to remember here is that it is always adapting to the optimum performance. granted vw and honda arent the same but you should see what kinds of things vw will adapt too.

S2oooNvegas

i feel as though im wearing ed pink's shoes. its all good. late

Wisconsin S2k

people know about them, but they don't use them on S2000's because they DONT WORK on S2000's. this car is quite simply, tapped out in n/a form from the factory using the factory ECU. there is not much to be gained.

you also continue to talk about these secrets, yet dave has told us his mods, and none of them have ever done what he claims they do for his car. so if there are other "secrets" going on, then obviously there are other mods that dave would have to have done.

i agree. honda got the increase by increasing the displacement and changing the tuning of the ECU a bit. however, they didn't have to do much to increase the flow in and out, since the stock parts from the 2.0 were able to continue to offer the same VE for the 2.2. there is such a thing as over-engineering, and this car is a good example in many ways.

also, in regards to the dyno, if you want to talk comparatively, you simply need to get a much bigger sampling. which is why we generally use dynojet since it is most common, and countless dyno days have been done. you need a larger sample then just a few cars to draw anything conclusive.

you're the only person that has ever expressed such gains. did you monitor intake temp, ambient air temp, coolant temp, timing, etc? there is a good chance something else changed the timing the ECU was using between the two runs and gave you a faulty impression of gains. but regardless, no one else has EVER seen those kinds of gains with a V2 on the S2k. ap1 or ap2.

again something you are the first to claim. no one else in all the days they've done this mod/experiment (on the same day and same dyno) has ever expressed such conditions.

you're right, our ECU is very versatile and intelligent. HOWEVER, it cannot make magical things happen. no matter what you want to do, it's going to stick to the timing mapping and air/fuel mappings it sees fit.

so yes our ECU will always try to get optimum performance out of what it's given. however, the other parts in the engine have been over-engineered in many ways, and in n/a form the engine is fairly tapped out. in order to make the kinds of gains you're wanting, it means you have to be improving the engine in areas where the factory fittings/parts/settings were inadequate. not only inadequate, but substantially so.

this simply isn't the case. no matter how much you open up the engine, it's still only going to draw in as much air as it needs. and as high of a VE as these cars have (in the upper 90 percentile by the way), they simply don't need much more air than they are already getting off factory parts. so you can talk about opening up air flow here, there, or wherever, but it simply won't do much good. you can't go beyond 100% VE and our engines are so close to that as it is, there is not much room for improvement N/A.

comparatively, our cars are in the upper 90th percentile for their Volumetric Efficiency. An LS1 F-body is only around 75%. Seeing these numbers makes perfect sense. intake/exhaust/etc on our cars don't do much since we're close to 100% VE. an LS1 gains a lot from intake/exhaust/etc because 75% leaves much room for improvement.

Wisconsin S2k

if you'd like to calculate VE, here is the equations you'll need.

First calculate the air density for the temperature taken at the intake/throttle body:



t1 = Temperature of air for a known density (32 �F @ 0.0808 lb/ft3)
t2 = Temperature of the intake air measured by the intake air temperature sensor (�R)
d1 = Density of air for a known temperature (0.0808 lb/ft3 @ 32 �F)
d2 = Density of the intake air (lb/ft3)




You will now need MAF (lb/min), however, our cars do not have a Mass Air Flow sensor. You can use the MAP sensor and engine RPM to look up MAF on a Speed Density table. Or you can use the conversion. I looked it up, but I'll find the conversion equation if I can and post it.

Once you have the MAF, use this equation here:



AVF = Actual volumetric flow rate (ft3/minute)
MFK = Mass flow rate (lb/minute)
d2 = Density of air for the intake air (lb/ft3)

After this, calculate Theoretical Air Flow.



rpm = maximum design rpm
TAF = Theoretical air flow (ft3/minute)
VE = Volumetric efficiency (100% theoretical)
ED = Engine displacement (in3)
ES = Engine stroke (2 for a four stroke engine)
C = Conversion factor from in3 to ft3

example:



And lastly, calculate VE:


VE = Volumetric Efficiency (%)
AVF = Actual volumetric flow rate (ft3/minute)
TAF = Theoretical air flow rate (ft3/minute)

S2oooNvegas

now your gettin somewhere.hope many questions will be asked on this subject. people learning is good.
if you can, email, or query as much info as you can from boyd butler, or paul haney. well, i could name 100 names. but these guys can teach you something about how effective, and to what importance the exhaust side is to the entire aspirated cycle.
build a 1000 hp small block, then have it breathe through holes the size of nickels. VE is tricky. hehehee. laters dave


word(s) of the day: port velocity. lates

hackmac87

see now your getting somewhere. your right as for the car being close too tapped.but there are very few n/a engines that achive high 90% ve and i dont think s2k is not one of them.i dont know the exact specs on the ve rating but it is probably in the low 90s.to really figure that out i would need a head and flow bench too get flow # and see what cylinder filling would look like.

as for the v2 i wont argue that due to that was one car and i only saw one dyno sheet for it.but i will say i think it is the best intake for the car.

as for dave i see that jackass doing things to that car everyday, hes a dork. and i gladly help.

as for the gasket yeah we watched everything temps,pressures,flow,ect...
over 3 days of tests. we thought the gasket was bulls%^& and wouldnt do anything but it did. i wont post #s becuase they varied,but once the car was at full operation the gasket show consistent drop in temps and dyno hp across the board.
it has been awhile since i worked at that shop but il try to find some sheets for it in my files somewhere.

i glad to see some real tought going into your posts.

as for daves port velosity smoshity....who neededs it when youve got boost! j/k EVOS RULE!

nice calulations you got there.i bought a book called AUTO MATH back in early to mid 1990s has that same equations, coinsidense i think not. everyone who wants to make real power go buy it.

S2oooNvegas

yes evos do rule, they rule the realms of all of my rearview mirrors, no other car has been there as much...

YellowS2kPwr

^^^

After all has been said, I still call major on daves 275hp n/a s2000 & am still fully unconvinced that your car has seen more than a 10whp gain if even that. I think this is a waste of time. I get what you guys are saying, but you're wrong. Post some dynos (dynojet), and if you can show me the #'s that you claim, then I'll believe you. If not, stop wasting everyone's time

S2oooNvegas

quite frankly no one cares what your stock s2k ass has to say.

heres the speculation. this is it. not fact, just a builders educated guess.

F20C usa. 240 HP
F20C euro/JDM 250 HP.

now if they added a crank, went up 200 cc more, and tad larger cams, dont you think after 4 years of s2k, and 40 years of winning races, they were able to pull out 10 more HP??? i hope so. my guess, by shawns proof, and driving both cars, is stock F22 is at 260 HP. thats not that far fetched.
so im guessing even if i ONLY bolted on 10 HP (yeah right) theres more trick than just purchased parts here. id be CONSERVATIVELY making 270. so i guessed it at 275 hp.
see how im thinking, im not a nutjob. LOL. but hey, think what you will. i have backed up how fast i am, but it hasnt been enough. so now im gonna do as you guys ask, and spend my time proving it. for sure vids are comin, dynos, its gonna be a while. and sea level track times.. its gonna be a few. i run high 13s in vegas, and every car that runs here is 7 tenths off. ive wasted no ones time, only negative folk. so if you come out here for silverstate, ill blow your doors off then we can talk. lates dave