PedalFaster

Sixteen events into the season, AS has outrun BS nine times, whereas BS has outrun AS seven times. That sounds pretty close to me, especially when you look a little closer and realize that at two of the events where AS came out on top, the winning AS car was an S2000.

Yes, I realize different run groups and weather randomize the comparison, so let's drill down a level. AS and BS ran in the same heat in at least four events this year (it may have been more, but some events' run orders aren't listed on the SCCA website).

• At the Atwater Tour, McHugh (AS Corvette) beat Goeke (BS S2000) by 1.391 seconds, or 1.27%.

• At the Farminton Pro, McHugh (AS Corvette) beat Yom (BS S2000) by 0.559 seconds, or 0.96%.

• At the Peru Tour, Lamont (BS S2000) beat Kozlak (AS 911) by 2.195 seconds, or 1.79%.

• At the Toledo Tour, Saini (BS S2000) beat Kozlak (AS 911) by 2.193 seconds, or 2.27%.

My perspective:

• It's still not clear to me that the S2000 would be uncompetitive in AS. You'd be hard-pressed to draw that conclusion from the data above.

• Each class has a dominant driver this year -- McHugh in AS, and Saini in BS. Hopefully the two classes will run together at Nationals so that we can compare their performances.

• McHugh will likely be back on Kumho V710s at Nationals, whereas Saini will presumably be on A3S04s, so even if they do go head-to-head, that's an uncontrolled variable.

Anyway, I'm kind of hijacking my own thread here -- the original intent was to see how people would react to the classing decision, so keep those votes coming...

Steve

solo2racer

I don't really know what I'm going to do next year since I don't even own an S2000. Maybe Steve and I will co-drive again next year, we haven't talked about it yet.

The reclassing of the S2000 to AS will be a factor in the decision, although not the only one.

My personal feeling regarding the move of the S2000 to AS is as follows:

AS & BS have both been well subscribed this year at all national events. Compared to last year where AS had trouble making a class at a lot of Pros, this year has been great.

While the S2000 can run with AS cars on some courses, and even beat them on others, it does introduce course dependencies that will kill the S2000 on other courses. If you combine the classes, you will scare away S2000 owners who are afraid of the C4/STi/Evo. You will also scare away C4/STi/Evo drivers who are afraid of the S2000. While this seems contradictory, this is a result of the course dependency issues. It is also only an issue at the top level of the sport - everywhere else driver ability will outweigh car abilities by a large margin.

Unless there are cars that are in demand that need a place to run, why disenfranchise the existing drivers in AS & BS. With the small number of RX8/350z/Mazdaspeed Miata that I've seen on the road, why create a class for them at the cost of existing competitors?

Brad

IMP

I've been looking into a different car for next year from what I have now (WRX Wagon). I've been auto-xing for 7 years, national events for 4 of them, this being the 5th year. (ProSolo and Solo-II)

The '01 S2000 is near the top of the buy list since the prices are fairly reasonable in the used market... freeing up auto-x mod money.

However, this move may delay a decision to purchase, which wouldn't be until sometime after nationals anyways. Maybe the town hall meeting will be full of AS/BS/ESP guys this year instead of us ST guys. (I say move STi and EVO out of AS into FS... but that's just me.. just seems natural.. they're japanese muscle cars).

So this move may actually determine if I get it....or just say to heck with it and pony up for what will surely be 'spec Elise'.

--Keith Casey

tmorrow

I'm somewhat competitive, regionally, in an '02. I've done a few divisionals and a Tour. I doubt that I'd ever get to the top half of the national BS pack even if nothing changed, but if it does - I'm out.

I like running "Spec S2K". All the really fun events I've been to were four to six S's seperated by less than 0.5. There have been 350Z's, RX-8's, MR2T's, mixed in too but they're few and far between. Most of my regional and divisional losses & wins were to other S's and two day margins have been 0.048/0.076/etc. My co-driver has taken locals from me by 0.052, 0.13X, etc... That's fun for me and fun is the real reason that most of us autocross. I'd certaily like the chance to win if I drive great and that may never happen against a C-4. Seeing Ian torch two national level Boxster-S's (AS) in his '01 at the Ft. Myers Tour showed they certainly could be runner up to a C-4 on VTech friendly courses. If contengencies paid down to third than maybe some of the big dogs would have incentive to stay in.

Maybe it won't be too horrible in AS, but I'm looking into either a STS 2 Miata (price/convenience) or a base RX-8. I think the RX-8 could win regularly in a Boxster, Z-4, and S2K-less BS. Plus, no trailer is required and they behave a lot like an S so the transition wouldn't be too rough.

My lease is up in July '05 and the car has depreciated so rapidly that I'll likely just turn it in. I'm in the business and can't even retail it for the residual buyout figure. It was leased at invoice with $4K down.

On another thought, autocross parts for the 2.0 won't be worth much, so when that month's FasTrack comes out start whoring out parts quick.

Other options: spend big money and run SM2 only to lose to Vettes and F/I Miatas, spend just as much and run BSP only t lose to Vettes and E36 M3's. It'd be nice of the SCCA to give us a chance to run in STU if the AS move goes through but I know things just don't happen like that...

kenlola

Hi Steve,

Great thread. In your example B stock beat A stock twice but the A stock field was very weak and I don't think the 911 would be competitive against the C4 Corvette or the Boxter S. I recently raced against Danny Shields, Boxter S at Sebring and he beat me by 2.5 seconds. Last year at Nationals he came in something like 15th in A stock. My feeling is the S2000 (all years) would not be competitive in A stock at the National level.

Ken

tmorrow

Ken, Danny was 8th in AS in a borrowed Boxster-S that had just had all it's ASP parts removed and was generally unsorted. He also was w/o rain tires. So, he fared pretty well. Rob Falkner (sp?) was 3rd in another Boxster-S. I think an S2K could place top 5 with a Saini, Stewart, (insert any other Alien name), but it can't win. But it looks like next year Ken and I will have an opportunity to see if either version can out run Danny, since he runs in our region.

If C-4's are occasionally beating out Z06's, put them together. What'll happen with the C-6 and the 2006 Z-06? That'll be a mess.

95ZedR1

You guys are getting shafted if this move takes place. I remember Jason jumping in our car at a local event (which was quite Nationals like in speed and distance) and on his 2nd run, ran faster than he could in the Mistress that same day. I'd hate to see what he could do with more seat time in our car...


Plus there are more days when these cars crush each other then when the numbers are right on top of each other. This year's results do not tell the whole story.

Mike Bullis
57 AS
1995 ZR-1

PedalFaster

Just to be clear, despite how it may appear, I do not have an agenda here. My letter to the SEB about the S2000 reclass will not include a recommendation one way or another.

Well, by the same token, S2000s are occasionally beating out C4s, so I wouldn't use that argument.

[QUOTE=kenlola,Jul 13 2004, 12:12 PM]Great thread. In your example B stock beat A stock twice but the A stock field was very weak and I don't think the 911 would be competitive against the C4 Corvette or the Boxter S.

Windscreen

Back on topic. My 2004 season for background:
19 regionals (24 days worth)
1 divisional (2 days)
4 ProSolos + Finale (10 days)
3 tours + nationals (8 days)
= 29 events, or 44 days of soloing

If the S2000 gets moved to AS, I will likely be looking for another fast, fun car to compete in as soon as I can afford it (read Elise, or if I get really crazy, something in SP, perhaps a BSP E36 M3). The car choice will be driven by what class, regionally & divisionally, offers good, top notch competition. For mere mortals, such as myself, I find that if you don't have anyone tough to race against on a very regular basis, it is very hard to push yourself like you need to. Index racing is nice, but doesn't really push you to that top 2%, IMHO. It is easy to make excuses when you're not doing well, and to write off good performances as a course that favored your car.

I think if Braun keeps his C4 parked and if Faulkner isn't driving Houser's Boxster S, the S2000 can be competitive in AS East of the Mississippi at Tours, but forget about Pros. Then when we go to Topeka, we'll all get whipped by McHugh. Won't that be fun.

I'm quite sure there are data points out there to show that the Boxster S and C4 will whup on the S2000. I'll take a look some evening next week...hopefully the SCCA archives have been updated with the past 2 years Tours by now.

Steve, why not write a letter in support of the status quo? I honestly don't see a positive benefit to the majority of the drivers affected by the proposed move. Where/who are all the national competitors clamoring for a class in which to drive the 350z/RX-8/MS Miata? As with other classing moves (see STS) I fail to see how this brings more people into the sport. What ends up happening is national competitors just spend a lot of money to move to the next "car to have". Leave BS alone to be the high powered version of ES (meaning, highly subscribed over an extended period because of rules stability), and then address a move when the participation numbers begin to decline. In other words, don't fix what isn't broke.

Steve

Hyper-X

I guess since we're not in an area where we can easily participate in any National event, it's only limited to the local cars that show up for each event.

AS in our region is filled with 1 or 2 STI's, Porches but no C4's of any kind (which isn't the car to have at our track since it's so damn narrow). STI's on race rubber will dominate since the loose asphalt feels like ice and we drive (I believe) on one of the only known courses to include major elevation changes in the course. Not having V8 power or turbo really hurts sometimes.

Here's a link to our July 4th event.
Hawaii Solo-2 July 4th Event

Pic #4 demonstrates the elevation change (high power uphill section) which is hard to take quickly sometimes due to poor traction (too much loose asphalt and missing chunks of the course!) STI's dominate this area since boost and AWD gives them the upper hand. Many cars end up becoming involved in an unplanned drift session. Pic #12 shows the downhill S turns after the off-camber where we try to capitalize on gravity.

The move (for us) from BS to AS won't be too bad, unless it becomes filled with STI's on race rubber which could pose problems. C4's, Porsches and the like are too big and heavy to use well at our raceway park (since traction is the main problem even on R's). If the S2k doesn't dominate AS as well as it could in BS, it only makes the AS victories over them turbo AWD's sweeter.

I'm curious as to why the SCCA is looking into moving the S2000 back into AS in the first place? Is it because of the MY04's packing the 2.2L?