Want to buy moton shocks, where to get them?
03-22-2007, 11:32 AM
#31
Originally Posted by Orthonormal' date='Mar 22 2007, 11:21 AM
Because they're not a performance benefit for autocrossing -- you can do the same thing in a monotube shock, but it may cost more. There's really no point mandating that people buy Ohlins/Motons/Koni 28s to get a monotube shock when they might be happy with the cheaper Penske 8100.
My question would be, why are they prohibited in IT?
My question would be, why are they prohibited in IT?
I do know that the whole reason for the IT class is so people don't have to spend allot to be competitive.
I look at a stock class that way. so when I see expensive killer shocks someone wants to put on a car in stock class makes me butt hurt.
I never thought of it as not having a performance benefit in autocross.
every time someone posts in here I just think track.
Soooo I have been corrected and now know that I suck.
03-22-2007, 06:15 PM
#32
The rules folks have struggled a long time trying to figure out how to allow inexpensive aftermarket replacements without allowing expensive aftermarket replacements. Nobody has really come up with a solution to that.
Diminishing returns keeps it from being a real problem. The biggest benefit of the more expensive shocks is the more comfortable ride on the street due to the wider adjustment range. I think it's okay for people who want to, to spend money on that.
Diminishing returns keeps it from being a real problem. The biggest benefit of the more expensive shocks is the more comfortable ride on the street due to the wider adjustment range. I think it's okay for people who want to, to spend money on that.
03-23-2007, 12:51 PM
#33
Registered User
I don't get the whole "stock" thing. Adjustable shocks, adjustable front ARB, cat-back exhaust, R-Compound tires. Yeah..sounds stock to me
Don't get me wrong, I love how the car handles after those mods compared to before (as well as giving me some adjustability), but I sure didn't enjoy spending that money just to be competative in "stock" class.
I wouldn't mind seeing a real stock class and moving the current stock rules to a new category. It is a rather low cost option to get a lot of extra performance, but no where near actual straight from the showroom stock.
Don't get me wrong, I love how the car handles after those mods compared to before (as well as giving me some adjustability), but I sure didn't enjoy spending that money just to be competative in "stock" class.
I wouldn't mind seeing a real stock class and moving the current stock rules to a new category. It is a rather low cost option to get a lot of extra performance, but no where near actual straight from the showroom stock.
03-23-2007, 12:56 PM
#34
Registered User
Originally Posted by Orthonormal' date='Mar 19 2007, 11:45 PM
In Solo Stock, you're allowed holes for routing the hoses, but not holes for stuffing the cannisters through.
"A hole may be added through the bodywork to route the line from
the reservoir to the shock absorber body. Such holes may serve
no other purpose."
-Steve
03-23-2007, 01:16 PM
#35
Registered User
Originally Posted by Naka' date='Mar 20 2007, 12:16 PM
7. What's the minimum gas pressure you can run without producing cavitation? Is it lower than other manufacturers? What's the estimated lifting force compared to shocks with smaller valve area? In other words, given the autocross stock class regulations; will the car sit lower, same, or higher than with other shocks, including stock?
Motons, they claim, can easily handle pressures as low as 100 psi without producing cavitation. That's lower than other manufacturers could claim. In fact, even lower pressures could be run for autocross purposes, since the runs are limited to few minutes only. If cavitation occurs, no damage is done to the shock. they return to normal once the fluid cools down. But for the street, they recommend it to keep it at least at a 100 (I believe Penskes use 150psi).
In other words, the difference in ride height is negligible because Motons can handle lower gas pressures to compensate for their bigger diameter piston.
Motons, they claim, can easily handle pressures as low as 100 psi without producing cavitation. That's lower than other manufacturers could claim. In fact, even lower pressures could be run for autocross purposes, since the runs are limited to few minutes only. If cavitation occurs, no damage is done to the shock. they return to normal once the fluid cools down. But for the street, they recommend it to keep it at least at a 100 (I believe Penskes use 150psi).
In other words, the difference in ride height is negligible because Motons can handle lower gas pressures to compensate for their bigger diameter piston.
1. Cavitation, even in auto-x, is not good. It will make the shock inconsistent, and handing may change over the course of a run.
2. I'm not familiar with any design features in the Moton that makes it more resistant to cavitation. It would be interesting to hear a technical explanation vs. marketing speak.
Cavitation is driven by gas pressure and how stiff the valving is - how much force you're trying to generate with the shock: hydraulic pressure is being created on one side of the piston hydraulic pressure drops on the other side. In stock class, we tend to use lots of compression to act as spring rate, so we are particularly vulnerable to cavitation above the piston.
-Steve
03-23-2007, 01:28 PM
#36
Registered User
Originally Posted by FormulaRedline' date='Mar 23 2007, 02:51 PM
I don't get the whole "stock" thing. Adjustable shocks, adjustable front ARB, cat-back exhaust, R-Compound tires. Yeah..sounds stock to me
Don't get hung up on the word "stock". "Stock Class" merely a name for a level of preparation. Much in the same vein that NASCAR Stock Cars aren't stock. Lots of people get hung up on the word stock and they shouldn't.
Regions are free to create a pure show room stock class if they desire. The SCCA rules are written for national competition. To create a new category of "show room stock" for the national program would require a groundswell of support.
Sorry for the sidebar.
-Steve
03-23-2007, 02:03 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by Windscreen' date='Mar 23 2007, 04:16 PM
I'm not familiar with any design features in the Moton that makes it more resistant to cavitation. It would be interesting to hear a technical explanation vs. marketing speak.
The lowest recommended gas pressure for the S2000 is 100psi. But that number gives a lot of room for tolerance reasons. They don't want to have people bitching about cavitation when using a recommended factory pressure and blame the shocks for it.
He said that all depended on the weight of the car. On certain lightweight racecars, the run even 50 psi without cavitation issues. But HE wouldn't go below 80 psi on the S2000, although he knows of people who had without issues.
Jason told me her run very low pressures during his Autocross runs, even below 80 psi. But he made the remark he could get away with it because he didn't drive it on the street.
I don't really know whether all that is true or not. All I'm doing is passing that information along. I don't have ways to test and prove what was claimed.
Sounded pretty darn good, though.
03-23-2007, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Naka' date='Mar 23 2007, 04:48 PM
It would have been so much easier to keep my car truly "stock". It would have saved me a lot of money. But it's hard to beat the guys with all these "stock legal" mods in their cars.