Tire question for BS AP1 setups
11-26-2012, 12:23 PM
#11
Just as a discussion, if the CR moves to AS and people in AS leave the class (heck, my times were good enough to trophy AS), then we're left with AS as S2000s and BS with S2000s?
That seems a little silly. Especially since there are places for AP1s to play (BSP, RTR, STR).
I don't think moving the CR to AS would bring any more competitors to Nationals that wouldn't already be there. And Paul Kozlak did say he'd leave AS if the CR went there (he was directly asked).
It's kind of like RTR. Almost all of the competitors would have been there in a different class if RTR didn't exist. While RT* was "popular," it just shuffled people out of the parent sticky tire classes and didn't appreciably bring new members out. Except maybe spec-11WRX class (RTA).
Registration was still under 1200 people. Pretty much where it had been the last three years.
Do we really want stock classes to fall under 20 entrants each? Because that's where it's heading.
Like "B-Spec" was going to be the next big thing... except nobody actually turned out to buy the cars.
That seems a little silly. Especially since there are places for AP1s to play (BSP, RTR, STR).
I don't think moving the CR to AS would bring any more competitors to Nationals that wouldn't already be there. And Paul Kozlak did say he'd leave AS if the CR went there (he was directly asked).
It's kind of like RTR. Almost all of the competitors would have been there in a different class if RTR didn't exist. While RT* was "popular," it just shuffled people out of the parent sticky tire classes and didn't appreciably bring new members out. Except maybe spec-11WRX class (RTA).
Registration was still under 1200 people. Pretty much where it had been the last three years.
Do we really want stock classes to fall under 20 entrants each? Because that's where it's heading.
Like "B-Spec" was going to be the next big thing... except nobody actually turned out to buy the cars.
11-27-2012, 07:27 AM
#16
Registered User
Agreed that the C4 would be a potential overdog if the CR and the Solstice Z0K were moved to A Stock, but that could be easily solved by moving the Corvette to AS as well.
I also agree with the RTR analogy. Today an S2000 owner can run in B Stock nationally and spend thousands on tires a year, or they can run in RTR and spend around a thousand bucks on tires a year. Today an S2000 owner is perceived to need a $25k+ CR to be nationally competitive in B Stock; if the CR was moved to A Stock (along with the Solstice and the Corvette), then you'd only need a $15k S2000 to be nationally competitive. Either way, you can continue enjoying competition with a dramatically lower capital outlay.
As an aside, analysis by Howard Duncan over the course of the season found that RT brought a highly disproportionate number of newbies out to national-level events this year. An informal survey at Nationals also revealed a significant number of first time attendees who said that they wouldn't have attended were it not for the existence of RT.
I also agree with the RTR analogy. Today an S2000 owner can run in B Stock nationally and spend thousands on tires a year, or they can run in RTR and spend around a thousand bucks on tires a year. Today an S2000 owner is perceived to need a $25k+ CR to be nationally competitive in B Stock; if the CR was moved to A Stock (along with the Solstice and the Corvette), then you'd only need a $15k S2000 to be nationally competitive. Either way, you can continue enjoying competition with a dramatically lower capital outlay.
As an aside, analysis by Howard Duncan over the course of the season found that RT brought a highly disproportionate number of newbies out to national-level events this year. An informal survey at Nationals also revealed a significant number of first time attendees who said that they wouldn't have attended were it not for the existence of RT.
11-27-2012, 09:41 AM
#18
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I was hoping that it wouldn't but the title of this thread was undoubtedly going to lead to this discussion. Like Marc P, I wasn't going to say a thing about how I felt about the competitiveness of the AP1 in BS since we've all stated our viewpoints a million times in the past and to say we have beat a dead horse is an understatement. But since Stephen just cleverly stated his opinion 
-respect to Stephen - "percieved to need a CR"; implying you don't need a CR to win, I have to respond,again, in case some noob is reading this thread. I will state again my perpetual "LOL" at the idea that an AP1 s2000 could win a national championship against anyone worth competing against in B-Stock that is driving a CR. No one that has ever tried competing for a full season in an AP1 s2000 agrees with that idea, only the people that never tried it claim that there is no difference.
Back on topic for the OP, I ran my AP1 s2000 for 3 seasons through multiple sets of 245x4 A6's. I never had an issue with fender rub while running the same DA Koni Yellows I have on my CR right now, coupled with a Gendron front bar. I would get to 90-100 runs on the rear tires before both grooves would dissapear, running 1/4" toe and >2' of camber.
-respect to Stephen - "percieved to need a CR"; implying you don't need a CR to win, I have to respond,again, in case some noob is reading this thread. I will state again my perpetual "LOL" at the idea that an AP1 s2000 could win a national championship against anyone worth competing against in B-Stock that is driving a CR. No one that has ever tried competing for a full season in an AP1 s2000 agrees with that idea, only the people that never tried it claim that there is no difference. Back on topic for the OP, I ran my AP1 s2000 for 3 seasons through multiple sets of 245x4 A6's. I never had an issue with fender rub while running the same DA Koni Yellows I have on my CR right now, coupled with a Gendron front bar. I would get to 90-100 runs on the rear tires before both grooves would dissapear, running 1/4" toe and >2' of camber.
11-27-2012, 10:48 AM
#19
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If anyone is handing out CRs ill gladly take one also! My college student ass doesn't want a car payment or I'd join the club. Apexi Blue Pearl please!
Ap1 in BS, have fun with that Justin
The only place the ap1 has a fair chance against the CR is in a mod class that allows update/backdate. That's the only way to level the playing field. Just my opinion and I've drove both cars and even won a tour in RTR driving a CR, go figure.
Let's see:
Lighter weight car to start
Stiffer chassis
Able to remove 30-35 lbs top
Able to remove 8 lbs radio
Able to remove 30 lbs AC
Able to run less fuel without fuel starve (half a tank less!)
Stiffer springs (more ideal for stock class)
Able to run larger tires (more lateral grip)
More TQ/HP (faster accel)
More favorable gear ratios (faster accel)
Name one single thing an non-cr car has over a CR. Their isn't one. Hens the name CR for "club racer" edition. The proof is there, arguing against it is comical to say the least. I've raced both cars and wouldn't pick a ap1 that's for sure. As everyone knows all the guys that had ap1s and ap2 base models all went out and brought CRs, or atleast the ones that have the money and serious about winning.
Not saying people in ap1s haven't out driven some CR drivers in STR for instance because they have. But I'm willing to bet if you put that ap1 driver in a CR he would of put down faster times.
Enough for me, back to my currently wrecked 166k mile ap1.
Ap1 in BS, have fun with that Justin
The only place the ap1 has a fair chance against the CR is in a mod class that allows update/backdate. That's the only way to level the playing field. Just my opinion and I've drove both cars and even won a tour in RTR driving a CR, go figure.
Let's see:
Lighter weight car to start
Stiffer chassis
Able to remove 30-35 lbs top
Able to remove 8 lbs radio
Able to remove 30 lbs AC
Able to run less fuel without fuel starve (half a tank less!)
Stiffer springs (more ideal for stock class)
Able to run larger tires (more lateral grip)
More TQ/HP (faster accel)
More favorable gear ratios (faster accel)
Name one single thing an non-cr car has over a CR. Their isn't one. Hens the name CR for "club racer" edition. The proof is there, arguing against it is comical to say the least. I've raced both cars and wouldn't pick a ap1 that's for sure. As everyone knows all the guys that had ap1s and ap2 base models all went out and brought CRs, or atleast the ones that have the money and serious about winning.
Not saying people in ap1s haven't out driven some CR drivers in STR for instance because they have. But I'm willing to bet if you put that ap1 driver in a CR he would of put down faster times.
Enough for me, back to my currently wrecked 166k mile ap1.
11-27-2012, 12:00 PM
#20
Registered User
Nick, you're arguing with a straw man. I posted saying that the CR should be moved to A Stock, yet you still somehow interpreted that as a subversive attempt to convince people that the CR's no faster than the AP1. Maybe reduce your coffee intake?